Scud over CS and Speciale Chris Harris

Please elaborate, I have no idea what trying to say.

Are you talking about the upper and lower wishbone bushes (in Ferrari speak, flamblocks)?

Wishbones are identical across F131(E) chassis cars except for bushing materials and the changes to prevent cracks. During the CS production run from Assembly Number 47928 the lower cast levers where replaced with moulded levers of the same size but different design. The newer wishbones look smooth/flat on the bottom surface vs the cast ones which are not. Technically casting should improve strength but the change in design allowed a cheaper moulding process to be used and still meet strength demanded.

On the Bushing material. No factory cars ever came supplied with Delrin. The race teams prepping the 360 and 430 Challenge race cars hated the flamblocks since their are 4 per corner, 2 upper and 2 lower which meant changing them is time consuming and due to wear at tracks they had to change them every season at least once. That was using a rubber compound of uprated spec vs road cars too. Eventually some teams machined their bushes from polyester but they caused a lot of chassis noise, not a problem for race cars but still wear was evident until eventually Delrin was tried and it simply didn't wear - at all! Never heard of a Delrin bushed race car ever having their bushes swapped again. Once they wear the geometry for the suspension gets sloppy and your tire wear is a accelerated plus mechanical grip reduced so for race cars this was a major benefit.

On the road the flamblocks grow tired with age, not use. They tend to sag after about 7 or 8 years old due to bushing material degradation. Most people don't notice until they drive back to back a car with all new bushes and proper geo hard on the track. Big difference to grip! I would swap them every 5 to 8 years depending on how you drive the vehicle so even newer Scuds will now be experiencing saggy bushes. Also there are bushes in the dampers too and on the anti roll barsd

 

Thanks for the info. I didn’t have the time to type all that out but I’m glad you did. I manufacture polyurethane and delrin flambloc upgrades for F cars and several of the CS I have inspected had delrin from factory. The rubber was a poor choice however I understand why most OEMs choose to do so.

 

Very Interesting. The CS bushes I inspected didn't use Delrin, none of them. That's the fun thing about Ferrari's, not all are built the same, its a bit of a lottery Delrin makes a huge difference to suspension geometry. I also note that the Challenge cars have adjustable drop links (non adjustable on the road cars sadly) and CNC machined rollbar bush holders for less movement. You can retrofit the drop links and well worth doing if your corner weighting the vehicle to allow better setup.

 

wait, what is this 386 hp? at the flywheel?

 

first, i am no expert. but i've been working on my 360s and 430 and had the following thought

The TCU of the SF2 is the soul, and the unique f1 actuator and gearbox's connection to that actuator , is the flesh.

if you can replace the gearbox(at least the portion that connects to the actuator) and the actuator and the TCU, you have basically set up a baseline for the sf2 360(or cs). That alone will be 10k at least, I think, depending on if the whole gearbox was replaced.

Now, next step is the integration of ignition ECU and the TCU. That would be the hard part. I am guessing even Trev would have to work on it for a while to come up with something meaningful

Oh, don't forget to add the additional sensor at the clutch hydraulic.

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in sum, its not actually that hard, if i have the time, i'll do it.

 

yes 386hp at flywheel adjusted vs 420 hp sticker

 

https://www.eurospares.co.uk/parts/ferrari/f430-scuderia-europe/all-pages/internal-gearbox-controls-71116


looks like not too bad, 1000+ british pounds will change the forks, unless there's a fitment issue. then the actuator about 4000 british pounds,
the TCU is about 1000 british pounds

not too bad.

now trev, how difficult is to integrade the 360's ignition ecu with the CFC301 scud TCU?

we flash the motronics, right?

 

Yes possible but lots of work to translate the CAN bus messages in both directions.

 

Like I love saying, Guisseppe had a bit too much wine on his siesta that assembly day and pick the wrong parts bin . In your opinion, would it be worth modifying a scud to Delrin? I have a lot of people ask me and most go polyurethan, however I don’t know if there’s a benefit to delrin aside from maming your chiropractor wealthy.

 

i've never seen any polyurethan bushing for f131 platform. i've seen delrin on my challenge car and the regular rubber ones.
so polyurethan may not be econmically feasible as no one has yet to make it.

by the way, what is "chiropractor wealthy", i look up and bing.com , can't find any idiom like that

 

Please see the photo of the poly bushing I make. Image Unavailable, Please Login

Make my chiropractor wealthy was a joke. I meant that the delrin is so stiff that it will make NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) so high that your neck will hurt more. As a result you’ll go to the chiropractor more and that will make him wealthy.

 

Read this..
https://www.ridetech.com/info/why-you-need-delrin-the-gold-standard-of-suspension-bushings/

It kind of backs up my experience that I didn't really notice Delrin being that much worse than Poly but in terms of how well it lasts and its overall performance, it has amazing ability to resist wear. I prefer Delrin over Poly for the fit and forget aspect of it. I hate changing bushes, a real hassle!

 

looks good, but seriously guys, you can sell your CS and buy a 2 year old 991 GT3 RS with 50% more power, goes round the corners twice as fast, so why are you w*nking around with a CS (or even a SCUD) ? the RS is twice the fun, >`I am lost, but but most certainly so are you ...

 

Ive seen more GT3s in SoCal than I’ve seen 911s. I’d buy a corvette, but I’m not balding and 50 yet.

 

If Delrin is such a magic material ("self lubricating"), why does Ferrari still see fit to put greased roller/needle bearings in them?
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.. Probably because most people expect them to last 60k+ miles in all climates.

 

As good as a Porsche is, it ain't a Ferrari. Just like a Prada isn't a Louis Vuitton... Id suggest different cars for different moods or events, just like clothes.

It's funny, I know you'll be saying the exact same thing in another 5 years time about the latest model of whatever is currently flavor of the month. I recall seeing a demonstration of a technology that is coming to cars in the next 10 years which makes the car go around circuits even quicker than you ever dream possible. It's an Artificial Intelligence based solution which is trained by F1 drivers. The cars ecus learn the fastest way to drive around a given circuit by using data from actual fastest drivers. So yes this will make the cars 50% faster again but you are just along for the ride, its completely autominous... Ahhhhh

The point I'm making here is so what if you can go faster. I'm sure adding 1000 hp can make you go faster but is that more fun? Depends on if it requires human experience and its a Challenge. I drove a chipped Mclaren 720S and yes it's fast but its kind of dumb pointless and boring to me in some ways, emotionally deadpan. I'd much rather pilot a 675LT. The sensations, feedback, emotions you get are very different. Also most people who own a CS also have other faster cars too, just because cars have got faster over the last 20 years doesn't diminish the fun a CS can be on the circuit. Did you ever really learn to power slide your CS and clip the apex in race mode with asr off? I tell you its an exhilarating experience to nail it.. Still requires skill and getting everything right. Not something I'd say about piloting a much faster 720S which by comparison is a lot faster but also looses a lot along the way too...

 

Totally agree..... Louis Vuitton is better than Prada.


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Derlin bushings won't without lubrication and bearings?

 

One can argue because the 720S has so much power and speed, it's much more exhilarating and requires way more skill / balls to hold a control slide with all nannies off...

 

Because they’re inexperienced. I’ve designed delrin parts for years and as long as you design correct you’ll be ok. I noticed the same thing when disassembling some Flamblocs. Same logic applies on why they use a steel to steel bushing for the rubber flamblocs. Really comes down to due dates, costing and inexperience. I’ve been in a few high end OEMs and you’d be surprised the stuff that goes on behind doors.

 

you can sell these and make a profit i believe, question is how much.

i have a lambo friend who's doing the same thing you did, using delrin, his price is little on the high side and never make a market out of it

 

I’m targeting same or cheaper than OEM pricing. I posted a thread In the classifieds, however as I’m beginning to find, most exotics owners tend to be on the cheaper side and don’t think quality is worth it. I’ve had several owners suggest I make them in China to bring down the price. I will never make exotics parts in China.

 

OEM is somewhere around US $150 each for the entire bushing (including the metals). that is buying from UK. UK has always cheaper prices.
the delrin OEM for challenge cars are about $110 ( cheaper than street car versions)
you can just sell the polyurethane and we use the old metal. I was expecting something like $20. You can make some delrin ones and sell it like $30 I belive.
hey , its just me. I'd think you consider that price not worth doing.

The lambo bushings , OEM , from factory, including metals, is $30, no idea why it is so cheap OEM.

 

Ferrari are cheaper because they are overengineered. Several people have asked me for just the insert, however I don’t think they’ve disassembled an oem flambloc. Here’s what oem looks like after a few thousand miles:

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The metal corrodes and galls. In addition, the rubber is vulcanized/bonded to the metal shell, it cannot be removed easily. My poly bushings have teflon liners to remove fricion and noise. I tell people to not only think about the price of a part but how much work/labor it will take to hack job it. I’m more than happy to sell just inserts.. I can make anything, some things just go against my professional recommendation. 360trev, do you agree?