Help with purchasing a Mondial | FerrariChat

Help with purchasing a Mondial

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by solly, Jul 14, 2019.

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  1. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    Hello to all: I am looking at a 1990 Mondial T cabriolet for sale on auction. I know very little about these cars, but I have owned a number of Ferraris, from a 360 spider, Dino 246GTS (sold last week. very sad), 360 Challenge and 355 Challenge twin turbo track car. This particular Mondial has 37K miles, but only 600 of those miles were put on since the last major service which included belt change in 2014. I believe the Mondial requires a belt change every 6 years? And it's an engine-out procedure? (although I read that cabriolets have access panels similar to the 360 which let you change the belts without removing the engine. Is this true?)
    I'm also concerned about a car sitting around for 6 years and not being driven. Dried out seals, frozen brakes, varnish buildup from old gas, etc. In addition, while the top goes down, there is some sort of problem with the rear window which won't go down, effectively making this car a soft-top coupe. Seller says he can have mechanic put window down permanently which is OK with me, as I only drive these cars on dry days anyway.
    1. Am I going to need a new timing belt immediately, even though only 600 miles on it? (We've had this discussion over the 360s for years, and most people I know stretched the interval to 5 years from the recommended 3 years). 6 years seems like taking a chance with an interference motor. Am I taking a chance by not replacing the belt immediately? There is no maintenance history from first owner (or 2 owners), and the only maintenance history are a few bills from 2014 done by current owner (belt change, oil leak fixed).
    2. Is there an access panel on cabriolets that would remove the need to drop the engine? I understand that the cost for that is over $5,000. True?
    3. Any other known common problems with this car I should watch out for?
    I'm trying to get seller to take car in for PPI, but only 3 days left in auction.
    Any advice appreciated.
     
    paulchua likes this.
  2. Mark C Harvey

    Mark C Harvey Karting

    Jul 17, 2018
    247
    West Hartford, Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Mark C Harvey
    Hi Solly. Nice to make your acquaintance. Many of the regulars here will be aware of the vehicle you are interested in on BAT, most of them are better qualified than me to answer your questions, but I’ll have a go.

    I really like the idea of lowering the roof, and just enjoying it until you have the opportunity to repair properly. Think of her as an Italian Cobra or Lotus 7!! :cool:

    1. Regarding the belt service, 6 years may be getting risky for a car that has been left sitting. The reason being that the belt can get deformed by sitting too long in one position, and these “flat spots” on the belt may be more prone to breaking. I purchased a Mondial last year that had 1000 miles since the last belt change - in 2013. I changed the belts before driving the car home (4,000 miles!). Put differently, i would feel better with 6 year old belts if I knew car had been started regularly (to at least rotate the belts).

    2. I seem to remember a thread stating it is possible to do an engine-in belt change on the T, but I think they are nearly always done engine out, probably for good reason. $5,000 is probably a minimum, as there will likely be other items to do while the engine is out. For what it’s worth, if you are confident, and perhaps have some keen friends, you could drop the motor yourself. Once out, the DIY would be a delight, with many fewer skinned knuckles!

    3. Mondial T’s are faster and handle better than earlier variants (the earlier variants handle beautifully), but the model is a major redesign in many areas, so not as ‘sorted’ as the previous generations. Hopefully by now, gremlins (mostly electrical) that may have once affected the car have been resolved. Many T owners today swear by their car’s reliability and are clearly passionate owners.

    I wish you good luck, but perhaps more importantly get the belts changed and get a good roadside coverage plan (I use Hagerty), then drive it like a Ferrari should be driven!
     
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  3. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    9,065
    SF
    I have been following that car since it was first listed on Hemmings. My advice is do the belts right away, and budget $8,000 total for all the work with a good independent. Yes there is a thread on here about doing the T belt service through access panels but at the end of the day I don't think you save that much, and you will sleep better at night knowing the motor was out and everything was fully accessible for good inspection.

    I agree, 6 years and a belt that has not been moved from position is not a good combination.

    The good news is he posted a driving video, and it seems to run ok.

    Black Mondials don't come up every week. Wish I was bidding against you but this is not my time.
     
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  4. alexion

    alexion Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2013
    1,303
    New York
    Sorted Mondial are great cars to drive and enjoy. The best ones to find are the ones that have been maintained at someone else's expense.
    For example, every Mondial that has come to BAT in recent memory needed a belt service, with the exception of my Valeo that needed nothing. People drive them and then when it's time to pony up for the next belt service, the cars get sold. On occasion, you find someone selling their fully sorted car and they don't seem to bring much of a premium. I'd rather buy a car where the former owner experienced the hardship.
    If you're not a DIY - I would budget at least $15k for the black Mondial and hope you're under budget, when in reality, it's very easy to go over budget.
     
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  5. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    The belts are not usually the failure item, it is the tensioner bearings that fail and the belt then fails. If you can determine the tensioner bearings were changed at the last belt change, then I would say you are ok for a couple more years. Of course proactively replacing things is always the lowest risk approach. But in the real world of calculated risk decisions, you have to make a call.

    There are legends of enterprising do it yourselfers having t belts being changed with engine in. But I doubt you will find a mechanic who would do it that way. I think t owners need to plan for and expect engine out service, even if deferred it will eventually be the case.

    6 years is quite a while without being driven, but if it was in inside storage, that's better than if not. But if the car starts and runs, if there are any leaks they will be apparent, so it is really a question of whether there are problems presenting from storage, there might not be. If it runs, the old gas issue which would be my biggest concern seems to have been avoided.

    The rear window being stuck is a tough problem to fix. The motors are not available, and the access is terrible so lots of labour to remove and deal with it, get a rebuild of the motor unit, etc. Might just be the window switch, they are prone to not working after lack of use. Flick it back an forth while the car is off 50 times or so, and things may work again. I doubt the motors have failed with the low mileage.

    If the car is otherwise in decent shape, and is running fine I would take a risk, drive the car for a while to see how much you enjoy it and then stump up for the belt/bearing change and do other preventative maintenance.
     
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  6. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    Welcome, and good on you to consider the Mondial, I would argue it is the Ferrari world's most underrated car.

    3 years is what he book says, although most my friends do 5. It is engine out and yes you can do it with access panels + tank out (but I don't recommend it) - do it right.

    Yes, assume the worse. Total replacement of everything that could have worn out. As for the window, can't say much as I never had my rear windows fail.

    I personally would do a full restoration + major if it were me. But you could get lucky.
    3 years is what he book says, although most my friends do 5. It is engine out and yes you can do it with access panels + tank out (but I don't recommend it) - do it right. Yelcab here did mine for around 5K last December. Dealer asked for 20K. So that gives you a range.

    Fuse box
    bad headlight motors
    leaking radiator
    old shorted out wires
    bad window regulators
    bad shocks
    broken electronic suspension units
    bad ABS unit
    bad steering rack
    word out bushings
    water pump
    alternator
    MAF
    Fuel pumps
    broken switches
    broken / worn signal stalks
    bad tach/speedometers
    broken boot/engine latches
    bad antenna motor
    leaking exhaust manifolds
    leaking exansion tank
    ignition coils
    starter
    bad cats
    sending units
    worn/broken seatbelt mice
    worn/broken seatbelts
    ac compressor
    hood latches
    roof hinges
    leaking roof


    Remember these cars are now 30 years old. Any car that's 3 decades old will need substantial refurbishment if not regularly maintained.

    Expect the worse, and plan accordingly. I went in with eyes wide open and decided early on to fix anything that came up. It's been motoring nirvana for me for the last 7 years.

    I've proven that even with all my repair expenses, it was cheaper then a brand new Toyota.
     
  7. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

    Feb 1, 2011
    3,859
    The Mondial access panel won't allow you to change belts like the 360. 360 panel is larger, and in just the right spot. Mondial access panel is on the top. You will have to drop the motor. The bright side is that it will make things much easier to work on for things like valve clearance check, water pump replacement, belts WYIT.
     
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  8. solly

    solly Formula 3

    Jun 2, 2001
    1,148
    Westchester NY
    Full Name:
    Dr. Steven S.
    OK then. Worst case scenario (I hope) around $20k in repairs. If I buy the car at the current bid (I'm the high bidder), total cost would be about $36,000, or $7,000 over the Hagerty value of $29,000, but I'd have a good refurbished car. I like the idea of an Italian Cobra:)
    I assume these are interference engines? So I would not want to take a chance with the timing belt. That is one long, long belt. And I can get Hill Engineering tensioners.
    @paulchua: I should have asked what usually does work on these cars, it would be a shorter list.
    Thanks to all for the help.
     
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  9. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Mar 31, 2006
    32,793
    East Central, FL
    Full Name:
    Wade O.
    Yes, an interference motor. Plus there's only one belt to run all four camshafts - so 32 times the interference.

    Also, the water pump acts as an idler pulley for the cambelt. Speaking of, I didn't see any mention of a water pump replacement in the ad, nor in the comments section of BaT.

    For peace of mind, I'd do (or have done) the "full service" and replace the water pump as well if there's no history of that. In other words, the engine needs to come out if a water pump fails so replace it "while you're in there". ;)

    Good luck on the bids, a black/tan t Cab is a beautiful thing. :)
     
  10. 2cam

    2cam Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2014
    742
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    MikeS
    Are you set on buying a T or are you open to earlier cars as well? If so, there are quite a few options out there that may be worth looking into with more recent services/fewer issues. There's a sharp-looking 3.2 cab in the Fchat classifieds section that's on Long Island priced at $32K. It may be worth looking into as it's had quite a bit of work ($25Kish?) done on it in the last several years. There's also a QV Coupe in Las Vegas that one of our members is selling. It's had a LOT of work completed on it in recent years. I would think that either of those options could be had for close to $30K which would be quite a bit less than what you will probably end up sinking into this particular car on BaT.

    Either way, good luck!

    2cam
     
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  11. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    9,065
    SF
    I'm guessing the reserve on the black BaT Mondial is $33 to $35.

    2cam is right about that 3.2 in the classifieds here asking $32,000. That's the bargain of the summer. (No affiliation)
     
  12. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    9,065
    SF
    Closes in about 3 hours Solly, will you be making a play for it?
     
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  13. Clnilsen

    Clnilsen Karting

    Jan 14, 2012
    63
    Celebration, FL
    Full Name:
    Chuck Nilsen
    Sold at $29K. Seemed overpriced for the condition but that's me...
     
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  14. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    9,065
    SF
    I think it was well priced, just not presented well. LIke someone else said, fixing the rear window prior to sale would have gone a long way. Hopefully the new owner shows up here to share.
     
  15. Temple

    Temple Formula Junior

    Jun 13, 2015
    590
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Temple
    I think about market correct. It is a t so....also not re-sale red, though that makes the car MORE attractive to me. There were certainly some “needs”. I figure about 15k to get her reasonably sorted, obviously starting w/ the belts/tensioner. 29+15=44. Sounds about right to me.

    Temple
     
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  16. ace_pilot

    ace_pilot Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2007
    916
    Long Island, NY
    Full Name:
    George
    Went to see the mondial in the classified at 32k. Not even worth it at 25k! The repair job on the fender painted over that ugly sticker. Theres rust on different components of the car (control arms, nuts and bolts, etc) The rear deck scratches the engine bonnet when opened. Paint and rim scratches everywhere. Windows are tinted. Plus the owner can't drive a stick very well (over-revving in the first gear burning out the clutch on every stop light) A smokers car too. Carfax with accident and mileage problems. I'd say there's a reason why it's not selling.
     
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  17. 2cam

    2cam Formula Junior

    Aug 28, 2014
    742
    Austin, Texas
    Full Name:
    MikeS
    Hmmm. That's too bad. :( Thanks for the heads-up on it.
     
  18. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2005
    3,628
    Canada
    The engine bonnet hinges adjust so it won't rub the trunk lid. Probably means the engine lid was taken off for servicing reasons. Smokers cars are gross, that's the only non starter listed there that would put me off.
     

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