The Wright brothers did not invent the airplane: change my mind | FerrariChat

The Wright brothers did not invent the airplane: change my mind

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Flavio_C, Jul 17, 2019.

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  1. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula 3
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    That's my first post on this section and hope it will be of a health and interesting discussion. I'm not a pilot but an engineer with some years in the aeronautical industry.

    I am aware that it is unanimous in the USA and in most of the Anglo world that the Wright Brothers are the inventors of the airplane by when they first flew "the Flyer" in 1903. However, when you combine historical and technical perspectives, it becomes highly dubious that they deserve to be credited as the inventors of the airplane, but instead this credit should go to either Otto Lilienthal or Alberto Santos-Dumont.

    Not sure if I was clear above, but analyzing the technical aspects of the respective flying machines created by them and laying them upon a time line, then it's clear (at least for me) that the Wright Brothers shouldn't be credited as the inventors of the airplane.
     
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  2. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    It's true that Dumont and Lilienthal invented flying vehicles but neither of their creations possessed roll control and the ability fly a circuitous course. Dumont's airplane couldn't carry more than a 90 pound pilot and Lilienthal's was a glider without any controls except weight shift.
     
  3. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    As is the case with many inventions it is not the individual aspects alone that create the invention rather the collection and integration of the individual aspects into a practical assembly. This is what the Wright brothers achieved before anyone else.

    Lilienthal was never into powered flight.

    Santos-Dumont claim to fame is the first take-off under own power IIRC, versus the catapult launch used by the Wrights. Otherwise his aircraft were no better than the Wrights and used some of the same, and soon to be surpassed, technology as the Wrights, e.g. wing warping.

    The rapid advancements following the Wrights show that they were fortunate to be able to claim the first sustained flight of a powered aircraft. Had they not become over protective of their IP they might have been relevant longer.
     
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  4. Bob Parks

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    Some more thinking about Lilienthal and Dumont. Lilienthal was working with an Englishman , Percy Pilcher, who was planning to install a small engine on Lilienthal's glider but Lilienthal was killed while gliding from a man made hill in Germany . Dumont's Demoiselle did have pitch and yaw control via a universal joint to which the entire empennage was attached. It lacked mechanical roll control but I imagine that the dihedral helped a bit to stabilize the airplane in straight flight. The Wrights were the first to put it all ( thrust, pitch, roll, and yaw) together and it worked. No body else had done it before the Wright Brothers. It wasn't perfect but they set the concept for what rapidly followed...in Europe.
     
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  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Langley also had a workable aerodynamic design before the Wrights, but no powerplant lightweight enough and powerful enough to successfully power his aircraft. His design was eventually flown with a later engine installed.

    The Wright brothers did not so much invent the airplane as they were the first to put all the elements together and successfully demonstrate controlled, heavier than air flight.
     
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  6. Bob Parks

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    We mustn't overlook the first successful air vehicles, the birds. Perfect airfoils for the type of flight for which they were intended. Perfect planforms for their mission, high aspect ratio wings for high altitude sustained flight, low aspect ratio for faster maneuvering and higher speeds. The alula that serves as a slat, the flexing tip feathers that bleed off high pressure flow and added a bit of twist to the wing. Something like the tips that have come in to play on the Big Tin Birds of today. In fact, all of the before mentioned items have been put into play for years on the " modern aircraft". I forgot the twisting tail feathers that change the lift vector for roll inputs. And we talk about bird brains.
     
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  7. GIOTTO

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  8. nerofer

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    It is a pity that Clement Ader had the lightweight engine everyone needed, but as for the shape of its own flying machine (and especially for its controls) his own ideas were not very well "sorted out", shall we say.
    The steam engine of the « Eole » had a remarkable power-to-weight ratio, with 20 hp for 112lbs, which is 5,6 lbs per hp ; the one used by the Wright brothers in 1903 gave 12hp for 165 lbs, which is 13,75 lbs per hp.

    Rgds
     
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  9. spicedriver

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    I think the interesting thing is that similar technology was being developed in different parts of the world independently, in roughly the same time period. Many other examples exist, e.g. Goddard/von Braun.
     
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  10. Bob Parks

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    Whitehead's design like Lilienthal, Langley, Dumont, and the others before the Wrights lacked the complete suite of essentials that made for a successful airplane: Control in all three axsies, adequate thrust, adequate structural strength, and in some cases the correct C.G. location. The Wright Brothers made a critical decision to ignore all of the data from the efforts that had gone before them and they initiated a clean analytical approach to their program.
     
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  11. Flavio_C

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    #11 Flavio_C, Jul 18, 2019
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    Interesting point. I'm 100% sure that flying replicas of Dumont's 14 Bis have roll control, but indeed I will need to dig into my own material to check whether it was present on the original 14 Bis of 1906. Still, I don't think that roll control, on those rudimentary aircraft, is the fundamental requirement that defines whether or not a particular person invented the airplane. The Flyer was not able to take off by its own power, it had to use a catapult to launch. If this propulsion issue is just a "technicality", then why Otto Lilienthal's gliders can not be considered the first airplane? They both accomplished virtually the same "mission". Santos-Dumont's 14-Bis on the other hand could take-off and land by itself.

    Did the Wright Brother's machine achieve takeoffs by its own power before Dumont's? No. Did they glide before Otto Lilienthal? Also no.

    Both the Wrights and Dumont "made a mistake" on their respective airplanes: they had put the control surfaces in front of the wing, causing their aircraft to be aerodynamically unstable. The Demoiselle was the first airplane as we know today to have solved this issue. Again, I'm not sure that roll control, although smart from a dynamics perspective, was fundamental during those initial stages of development.. Yes, it make things way more easy to control but sooner or later it would be figured out.

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    But not without the help of an external power.

    Great post!

    I remember that during the commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the first flight, one university (Ohio or Washington, I can't remember) built a Flyer replica. Even though they used modern, lighter materials, and a more powerful engine, during takeoff they suffered an accident because the aircraft was impossible to control. There were many other attempts that also ended up failing miserably. The 14-Bis replicas on the other hand all can sustain decent flight. There is a video on Youtube where the builder of one replica was so confident with the stability and easiness of control that he put his 18-year old daughter to fly it by herself.

    So why Flyer's replicas can not be controlled to sustain flight? It comes to mind that known fact that the Wright Brothers were very secret and would only allow a few witnesses during their flights... It's very different than flying in Paris:



    Still, I think that Otto Lilienthal was the first one to "fly" and deserves the credit, at least partially, on the invention of the airplane.
     
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  12. Bob Parks

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    One last shot. The only thing that I think that the Wright Bros. did wrong at the time in modern aerodynamics was the Canard but that was their answer to the downward pitch moment of the wing and they recognized that. The Canard is a dangerous stabilizer because too much incidence input can produce a stall that will reverse the input and produce a nose down result. Similar to wing twist at low speeds. Control to bring a wing up at too low a speed will produce a stall and reverse the input. Anyway, they eventually eliminated the Canard and stayed with the aft mounted horizontal stabilizer in subsequent models.
     
  13. spicedriver

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    IMO, the Wright Brothers' catapult system was quite brilliant. Modern carriers still use a catapult to launch aircraft in such a short distance. Are these aircraft not flying ?

    Santos Dumont's focus had been on balloons and blimps. He only changed his focus to heavier than air craft after the Wright Brother's success. He also scoffed at claims the Wright Brothers' had made that were well documented.

    The first powered heavier than air craft in flight - 1903.

     
  14. jcurry

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    If that is the case then he also deserves credit for having been involved in the first fatal airplane crash, which heretofore has been attributed to the Wright brothers.
     
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  15. Gatorrari

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    The key on the Flyer is that, even if it needed assistance to take off, it proved capable of subsequently remaining in the air under its own power. The last flight was 59 seconds - only the first few of which were as a result of the catapult action. So I think the Wrights still deserve the credit for being first.
     
  16. spicedriver

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    Actually the first flights at Kitty Hawk in 1903 did not involve a catapult. Only after they started testing the following year in Ohio did they need to build a catapult. Because the winds in Ohio were not nearly as strong and consistent.
     
  17. Avia11

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  18. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    reference?
     
  19. Bob Parks

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    Lilienthal did "fly" but only as a glider pilot.Gliding from the top of a hill to the ground. Control by weight shift, only one direction of flight. no ability to climb to a higher altitude, no ability to sustain flight or to add to the distance of travel. This is not an airplane . So, I think that there has to be a specific description of what is an airplane. A glider, or a vehicle that can fly on its own power and trace a variable course while gaining altitude, etc.
     
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  20. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    ^^^
    per FAR 61.5 an airplane and glider are separate categories for pilot certification
     
  21. Bob Parks

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    I knew dat.
     
  22. Bob Parks

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    I overlooked the revelation that one of the Wright Brothers had when they twisted a long narrow box and realized that by twisting the wings in a similar manner they could achieve some roll control. That worked and no one else had done that before the Wrights. The interplane struts have articulated connections instead of rigid joints to allow for the wing twist. Glenn Curtis enhanced this discovery with ailerons suspended between the wings of his aircraft and sparked a fierce legal battle with the Wrights and their patented design.
     
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  23. kylec

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    Bob- I’m not sure if you’ve been to Kill Devil Hills recently, but they have a full size replica of the Flyer that a NPS ranger uses to demonstrate the control surfaces including weight shifting/wing warping.
     
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  24. Bob Parks

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    Thanks. I have never been to Kill Devil Hill even though I lived near the east coast. When I was going to Duke and living in Florida I drove up and down the coast in my 1933 Plymouth coupe and never stopped at the place. I'll put that on my bucket list. It's getting pretty full, tho.
     

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