575 manual watch, Europe | Page 26 | FerrariChat

575 manual watch, Europe

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Themaven, Aug 1, 2015.

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  1. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Needs lots of leather work and, except for the FHP, is pretty bare.
     
  2. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

    Jun 26, 2013
    3,001
    London UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Morning all, still lurking around.

    So, do any of you feel that environmental legislation is effecting values of 575s and other modern-classics?
    As a Londoner I speak of Citizen Khan's Ultra low Emission Zone and the possible adoption of similar schemes in other British cities.
    £10 or so a day maybe doesn't break the bank for a 575M manual owner but it does annoy and perhaps indicate a direction of travel for the country.
    Classic cars (40 years and over) get an exemption but by the time a 575 is that old I possibly wont be driving.
    Will we see a gradual reduction of value as the green net tightens, or will there always be gentlemen buyers who don't much care and will pay up for exclusivity?
     
    F456M likes this.
  3. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
    I'm just outside the M25 (that's the ring road around London for non UK people) and I rarely drive into London. Parking, congestion and the general unpleasantness of the place makes me use public transport or Black Cabs.

    Your average Ferrari owner in the UK generally has 4 or more cars. So it's likely one of those will be chosen with whatever restrictions are imposed if needs mean you must drive in one of these zones. I guess you'd then choose to keep your non compliant cars outside of the zone.

    Much of this stuff has passed over my head as my wife is disabled and a Blue Badge holder. To that end all our cars are registered in her name meaning we're exempt from most tolls, charges and restrictions. Even with these benefits I will only drive into London if there's no other alternative (say my wife has a medical appointment etc). In Westminster a blue badge provides very little concession at all. The one huge benefit being that as the vehicle is registered to a disabled owner it cannot be towed or clamped - but we do get a parking ticket. So we just accept if we're unable to find a disable bay or appropriate parking space that our parking cost for that day will be whatever the ticket costs - £60 usually.

    The reality is London can't cope with the volume of traffic it attracts, but there are better ways to go about dealing with it than the schemes currently being dreamt up and implemented.
     
  4. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
  5. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    While the seller seems to be grudgingly moving towards reality, this car would sell closer to £110k than the new asking price in the current market, particularly given where an otherwise similar F1 would be trading. And anyone who thinks a 20K mile RHD car still trades £180k (suggested in posts above) is smoking dope.

    Also, it seems (but I have no definitive data) that the RHD premium in the UK for collectables is shrinking. Could partly be the prospect of import taxes in what is now a more isolated RHD market with currently limited demand. My dealer said that he is seeing for the first time UK buyers order collectable cars like Pista etc as LHD (so EU delivery) as buyers think about the future size of the RHD market. Add to that the talk of wealth taxes etc in an extreme case, people might prefer their cars to be more "mobile".
     
  6. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
    Honestly I think £110k would surprise me.

    A 46k mile 2002 575M F1 to this spec would be what right now? I'm seeing 20K mile cars sell for low to mid £70k's so a 46K mile car has to start with a 6 at least you think?

    £110k is still an 80% to 90% premium.

    I'd call it now closer to £80k to £90K real world private sale price. Which in reality means it's probably just not going to sell whilst the owner still has memories of £200K manual 575's.
     
  7. SAB42

    SAB42 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2013
    39
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Why does everybody in the trade think 575Ms have bigger brakes than 550s? Only the HGTCs do.
     
  9. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
  10. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    7,698
    Newbury, Berkshire, England
    Full Name:
    John
  11. haroonok

    haroonok Formula 3

    Sep 5, 2007
    1,152
    england
    Full Name:
    haroon
    Love it in Verde
     
  12. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

    Jun 26, 2013
    3,001
    London UK
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    Graham
  13. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
    I had a cheeky bid at £100K and he said he'd given more than that for the car.

    It's getting closer to reality though and I can see you're starting to get tempted......
     
    635CSI likes this.
  14. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
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    Alan
  15. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Oct 15, 2012
    7,698
    Newbury, Berkshire, England
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    John
    My guess would be that the facts that it is LHD being sold in the UK, and a Japanese import, contributed to the the poor showing by this lot. Bear in mind that a buyer would have to add commission of 10% + VAT, so the cost to him would be £95,200. Then there is the usual issue with buying at auction - no PPI, no comeback, not even a test drive. Throw in the time of year for good measure, and you have an explanation for £85K not being representative of the price of a Euro spec. car on a dealer's forecourt in Europe in the Spring.

    I would surmise that the high bidder was either an opportunist taking a big risk and building in an appropriate contingency, or a dealer expecting to spend a few bob and retail on a 50% margin.
     
  16. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
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    Alan
    #641 21ATS, Nov 23, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
    Much of that could be absolutely spot on. Alternatively, the appetite for these cars may simply have cooled and we're returning to reality.

    In most cases the LHD/RHD price disparity seems to have almost disappeared from the UK market, on the grounds that prices have softened here to a degree that LHD cars are just so attractive in their respective markets that they become a bargain (when combined with a weak pound).

    With low volume cars (in this case factory manual 575M's) as there are so few of them some of the normal "effects" often don't apply or have a less dramatic effect on the value than if were a regular car (an F1).

    Personally I think it's a combination of your points with a return to reality. The manuals are simply not worth double an F1 car (all things being the same) in today's market.
     
  17. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
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    Oct 15, 2012
    7,698
    Newbury, Berkshire, England
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    John
    Yes, a massive premium for a manual 575 over an F1 is ridiculous, especially when the rarity value is diluted by there being a plentiful supply of almost identical manuals in the form of the 550. It's not the same as, say, a manual 599.
     
    21ATS likes this.
  18. MogulBoy

    MogulBoy Formula Junior

    Sep 23, 2004
    969
    Devon
    Some things don’t add up here.

    Too many tbc’s in the auction listing (notably chassis number) (although the dedication plate states Matricolo no. 128470)

    No UK registration plates (so can’t check the MOT history online)

    ‘Imported from Japan’ but the round side markers are EU specification so perhaps it is an EU spec car that had spent some time in Japan...

    Listing states that is is a 2004 but it clearly isn’t. The Dedication plate refers to the 2001 World Championship (suggesting that it may be a very early car, possibly 2002) and I don’t see the superfluous casting on the intake plenum which is a feature of all motors built from 2003 onwards (not sure of precise assembly number)
     
  19. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,665
    Oslo
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    Erik
    DPM Motors in Monaco have a red 575M manual and one F1 + two 550s. www.dpm-motors.com
     
  20. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
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    Jimmie
    How unrealistic some of the manual prices are was evidenced by the lhd euro F1 fetching £ 52080 (probably including commission) in the same sale as the Japanese manual in #639
     
  21. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,252
    Eastdown
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    Darius
    It’s much harder to sell LHD in the UK, and while it’s hard to argue a price differential, 30 to 35 per cent discount over UK RHD is still a good rule of thumb if you speak to dealers, plus a lot more hassle and far smaller pool of buyers.

    I own one LHD Ferrari and a few RHD ones, and of course the driving pleasure is equal.
     
  22. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,665
    Oslo
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    Erik
    Interesting. I am looking for a Bentley Continental R Coupe for a friend. We are only looking for a LHD car as we are going to use it in Sweden and France. Do you have any idea where we could find such a car at a bargain price now while it is winter and before Brexit etc.... :)
     
  23. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan
    Pistonheads is probably a good place to look Erik.

    Here's what I found:-

    A Sedanca Coupe LHD.

    https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/bentley/continental/1999-bentley-continental-sc-for-sale-in-london-lhd/10112402

    https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C813890

    These people are well known Bentley specialists.

    https://www.marlowcars.co.uk/?utm_source=CarandClassic.co.uk&utm_medium=portal

    Or Car and Classic:-

    https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/9/continental+r/
     
    F456M likes this.
  24. 21ATS

    21ATS Formula Junior

    Dec 10, 2016
    988
    Kent, UK
    Full Name:
    Alan

    The 30% to 35% rule of thumb only applies when all things are equal. So normally I'd say you're about right but we currently have a market disparity with mainland Europe.

    Sure the mainland is depressed but not as much as the UK market currently is. So LHD cars are selling (and repatriating to a LHD country) at almost the same price as a similar RHD car here.

    Example.

    The ferrari centre sold this LHD 550 for a chap in the Netherlands at full ask. - £69,995

    https://www.tfcgb.com/previously-sold/7105786-ferrari-550-maranello-lhd/

    They've taken a deposit on this RHD (and recently sold another 4 or 5 around this number).

    https://www.tfcgb.com/used-cars/6886067-ferrari-550-maranello/ - £74,995 assuming it's going at full ask.

    There's just not the huge disparity there has been in the past.
     
  25. F456M

    F456M F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2010
    3,665
    Oslo
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    Erik
    Thanks alot!! I like those big coupes!
     
    21ATS likes this.

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