488 - Ferrari Pista vs Mclaren 720s in autobahn | Page 3 | FerrariChat

488 Ferrari Pista vs Mclaren 720s in autobahn

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by tekaefixe, Aug 6, 2019.

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  1. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Ageee.

    I recall the 650s had significant lag. 488 did a great job of trying to limit.
     
  2. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

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    Or, they make a prediction of how many they'd sell if not limited and then limit it to that to create a sense of exclusivity among its owners. I feel like Lambo did that with the SVJ coupe and roadster.
     
  3. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

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    Taken from another forum:

    “It will be called 765lt
    765 hp ( europe messurement)
    700 coupe
    700 spyder
    lots of aero
    ( to get one, must have the 720s befor)
    geneva 2020 ( maybe winterball december)

    they have to bring it soon and befor 2021 when new emission law kicks in) euro 6d is mandatory also for so called small manufactors latest 2021. Therefor the Lt will probably have no Opf (Otto particular filter)and def sound loud“
     
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  4. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

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    I can see another serious ass kicking of the pista (or anything else actually).... and another one when Mac launches their hybrid (to target SF 90 FATale) ....
     
  5. WM458

    WM458 Formula Junior

    Aug 25, 2014
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    Turbo‘s lag, interesting discussion.
    My perception is it very much depends on the actual load (rev area) when pushing the throttle.
    There are many Porsche owners (must be fan boys) that try to convince me the tts hasn’t got any lag, Thus, it’s lag wouldn’t be longer than the one of a 488.
    I know (from my own experience) the lag of the 488 is between minimal and nothing in any rev area, whereas the tts shows a significant pause before it begins to pull when it comes from low rev areas.
    The same can be noticed with the 720. Not as severe as the tts, but still by far not pari with the 488.
    Ferraris V8 turbo engine, from this (but not only) point of view, is best in class.
     
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  6. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Interesting to hear perspective of people on the driving capabilities of cars. I can only share my personal ownership experience when relating my feelings about lag. almost 5000 miles in a 488 and I would agree with everyone- virtually no lag at all - I mean none. The engine is turbocharged obviously but it had a very linear delivery on power. My Pista hasn't arrived so I cant comment on the lag of that car but from what I hear, virtually everyone says that lag is non existent in the Pista similar to the 488 - which I would expect.

    I got my 720 last October so coming up on 10 months of ownership and have almost 3000 miles on the car. There is no lag in that car either. When I first test drove the car long before purchasing, I had felt there was lag but I was driving in automatic, not driving properly- but if you put it in sport mode and manual (which is how I drive these cars 99.9% of the time) I do not feel any perceptible lag. The car pulls like no other.

    Porsche TTS - crap- laggy as all hell and would never own one.
    570 - very laggy unless you get the rpm high- was not a fan
    650s - again- very laggy - did not like it and did not purchase when I was shopping for my 488

    Now if you drive around town in auto mode - there was a discussion a while back where one of the members was wondering why would you click on the paddles all days - the driving capabilities of the cars is terrible. But in manual mode, the 720 and 488 (and I assume the Pista) are all fantastic machines and no perceptible lag whatsoever.
     
  7. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

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    Totally right! It happened many times when I was in auto that some idiot makes a dumb or dangerous maneuver and to avoid some danger I have to accelerate and with low rpms in 7th gear the car need to go down to 4th and only then power and torque start to come and only then the car accelerates. By then the guy is already in front of me with his VW golf or whatever and laughing as he’s faster than a Ferrari....
    Man... how I wish for a Turbo 488 in those situations....

    Serves me right, never drive these cars in auto even if you’re just cruising!
     
  8. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    I dont drive in auto. Worst driving experience ever.
     
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  9. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

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    I've driven 720s for 4K miles on track. Be in the proper gear and the car rockets. Be in too higher of a gear (ie; being wimpy coming out of slow corners in 3rd gear (should be 76 mph as a minimum in this gear) at 45 mph in 3rd gear then it won't rocket out of the corner. It won't lag but the "zoom" won't be there. It won't be like that in other cars either if you are in too high of a gear.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also,

    1)how did this topic sneak into watching these high speed autobahn runs and the relative performance between the two cars
    2) Is Fchat going to send a check to brooks and robert for the money they made from the views/discussions of their considerable efforts to make this video.
     
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  10. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Good info from an actual owner. But wouldn’t this just be bad driving? If you are in too high of a gear - any car, any engine is not going to be as responsive.
     
  11. Just a point of clarification.

    Porsche engineered the GT2 to have lag.

    Andreas Preuninger wanted the 991 GT2 to act and behave like a proper turbo.
     
  12. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    I agree that DCT's are poor at downshifting. Automatics are far superior. In my M5 or Camaro ZL1, flooring the gas peddle results in an instant (or damn quick) kick down to the proper gear. In my M5 I recently recorded a 60-130 time of 8.21 seconds without touching the paddles or selecting any gears. Works very well. Mind blowing to think that's a full 3 seconds slower than a 720s is capable of, but they're very difference animals.

    DCT's are very satisfying when pulling the paddles yourself.
     
  13. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Which is what you want to do in a Pista, 720, 488 etc etc
     
  14. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

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    They key is to getting to full power quickly (no skill needed in smashing that pedal all the way down and keeping it there. Lower gears (like #2 out of slow corners will cause patience and rolling onto the throttle (which takes some skill to do and you'll be inconsistent with managing the throttle). In many ways; it is just easier to be in a higher gear and smash the throttle (it mitigates wheel spin, judgment, etc. but impacts speed coming out of a corner). I'm an amateur driver and this is how it has to be done with higher horse powers cars (ie; anything above 600 Horsepower).

    This is one of the reasons why GT3 or GT3rs drivers have a hard time replicating their lap times with higher horse power cars (GT2rs, 488/675/650/720/pista, etc.). They are used to being in lower gears and smashing the pedal at will and the car just keeps moving (no zoom, zoom and not much judgment involved). I know 3 very, very fast drivers in .2 gt3 and .2 gt3rs and they could not replicate their lap times with a GT2RS (they just couldn't adapt so easily at the lower gear speeds out of corners. All 3 sold the GT2RS due to this reason).
     
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  15. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
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    It's a calibration thing. Sportscar manufacturers care most about their manual mode and the automatic mode is calibrated for the WLTP/EPA economy tests, depending of course on the powertrain setting.


    That's wrong anyway, but that's why manufacturers have developed electronic aids.
     
  16. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    How each engine is likely to behave at the hands of the driver can be shown on a graph with the hp and torque curves and, at what rpms the max hp and torque is achieved.

    My experience with the high revving atmo 3rs vs the turbo 2rs is that the 3 is simply unable to achieve what the 2 can do from low revs and, it is really only once the 3's engine gets well into stride that equivalent maneuvers become possible. Still an incredibly satisfying car to drive and in some ways more so than the 2 but again each have their own distinct advantages I find. Personally I'd hate to make a choice between either but in saying that the 3 is probably really all one needs which again raises the question how ridiculous the HP wars are getting and how unnecessary it all is - all things considering.

    I also understand completely what exotic is saying where some of his 3rs buddies sold their 2rs's because they couldn't extract the same lap time. This is primarily due to the way they are using the turbo power of the 2rs engine and gearbox ratios. It all comes down to what you've spent most of your seat time in. For me being more accustomed to the turbo find its easier coming out of the turbo into the atmo in context of achieving a better lap time. The turbo just takes more time to get used to but once you're there - found it - getting back into the atmo can find you trying to get that car to do the same thing at lower revs which just isn't gonna happen until you've again re accustomed yourself with the different drive unit. Same thing again stepping out of the atmo getting back into the turbo you generally find yourself initially looking to apply more throttle - as in have a heavier foot rather than a foot which feeds the power on rather than just dump it - apply more revs or select a lower gear than what is really required. It all comes down to time and adjustment really. Both are really good and to be appreciated rather than just say one is simply better than the other. Bit of a cop out in my book.

    As being an owner of both the 997 and 991tts which generation TTS are you referring to? A 99 7 or 991? They are two very different cars with regard to lag. Keen to hear.
     
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  17. exoticcardreamer

    exoticcardreamer Formula 3

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    Yeah sure. Maybe its better to drive and not have the electronic aids come on to assist you.

    You sure seem to talk a lot about tracking/performance without having any of these cars or even showing any videos of yourself doing the same thing.
     
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  18. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    Actually Porsche have provided incredible intuitive programs for their normal, sports and sports plus settings. Their latest settings since the 991 just keep getting even better if you even thought that possible. It's like they have every situation covered to where you'd swear the gearbox is hardwired to your brain.

    Ferrari and Mac OTOH are just straight up hopeless in their auto settings and to me that's really unacceptable in cars of this caliber and price range. And whilst using the paddles is my usual choice it still doesn't excuse the lack of engineering and development in these settings for those occasions when you knock the car back into auto.
     
  19. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Auto mode in the 720 is pretty darn good, I can't speak for the 488.
     
  20. BG23

    BG23 Formula Junior

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    Based on what I know - the calibration of the auto settings in the gearbox is completely driven by emission requirements. I can almost guarantee Ferrari and others would love to change them, but they can't. I am not sure why Porsches are less "economy driven" but I would suggest that given their fleet starts from 4 cylinder boxsters/caymans this gives them more flexibility.

    Ironically the setup in auto is so annoying I never use it...ever. Which ensures my actual fuel economy is always terrible, as opposed to sometime terrible.

    Someone told me recently that the reason for the very long gearing in the GT4 was not a engineering choice but an emissions one.
     
  21. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    #71 Shadowfax, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    BG23 i'm not buying that. I'm aware some here will defend Ferrari regardless and as admirable as that may be, for me I just call it how I find it and to hell with the politics and brand defense. There also really is no point "almost garanteeing" anything. You either know something as absolute fact along with supporting evidence or, it's a myth.

    I would also concur with GH1234 that 720 was better than the F car in auto mode which wasn't all that hard to do as Ferraris effort in this area is clearly zero based upon my experience in owning the 488. Ferrari could have quite easily provided a proper intuitive shift setting for auto whilst in race mode and so forth but they didn't (bc of sheer laziness or arrogance) so there is no point trying to make excuses for them based upon an emissions assumption because if that was the truly the case they'd all be as hopeless as one another in all modes and, again that simply isn't the case as most know.

    The only brand who's put the effort in and sorted auto to near perfection is Porsche and if that pains some Ferrari owners to hear that then so be it! Maybe the saying "there is no substitute" has merit and particularly where the controls of these cars are concerned Porsche is unquestionably the best I've come across in this area (sadly).

    Porsche hunts for the taller gear in normal mode but at least there is some down shifting upon braking. It is clear this mode is all about emissions reduction....nothing new there. The other modes such as sports and sports plus are very intuitive so much so one could swear the gearbox is hardwired into ones brain. It's an amazing effort by the Germans. A pity the Italians cant get their act together or maybe its something that is beyond their expertise. Seems that way. Bit like their electronics and interface, battery etc....quite pathetic borderline disgraceful especially given the claims of superiority and the prices asked. Don't even get me started...

    However in the 488, regardless of which mode you are in (sports race etc ) the auto shift is the same - absolutely f/g terrible....and that is being very kind.
     
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  22. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    The Perf spyder has serious issues in auto trying to properly kick down. The three times I tried it.
     
  23. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

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    Completely true! My 991 TS has the best auto ever. 7th gear kickdown goest to 3rd full boost (750nm) no traction problems just go. The 458.....the silly car goes 6th, 5, 4 and then accelerates (should actually go to 3rd not 4) meaning too much time passed and it’s too late now....
     
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  24. tekaefixe

    tekaefixe Formula 3

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    In the first paragraph you’re talking about religion right ;)

    Porsche’s are so good in auto Walter Rolf actually drives in auto and suggests driver should drive in auto in the track to get the best times. That’s how good they are.....
     
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  25. BG23

    BG23 Formula Junior

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    I am not defending Ferrari, I am making an observation. Also, I certainly don't think Ferrari can do no wrong.

    You state if it were emissions based they'd all be as hopeless as each other. I am no expert in this area but my understanding is that there is "whole of fleet" element to it. Ferrari's least powerful car is about the same as Porsche most powerful car. Porsche's bread and butter car is now an 1988cc 4 cylinder without much power, character or CO2 @ 160g/km - why? Environmental reasons. Porsche admit it is environmentally challenging to leave the GT3RS NA - it's a 520HP flat 6. Imagine the challenges with an 800hp v12.

    Porsche's challenges are different to Ferrari. Does this give Porsche an environmental advantage for it's more powerful cars? Yes and if that's what you want buy the Porsche - they're an awesome car.
     

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