Timing Belt service/Rip off | FerrariChat

Timing Belt service/Rip off

Discussion in '360/430' started by Joship, Aug 10, 2019.

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  1. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    i have a 2004 Ferrari 360 Spider. i have had horrible experiences with ferrari repair shops. The latest one being just yesterday with a Ferrari Dealer/repair in Los Angeles. I took my car in for periodic maintenance. The service manager advised that the timing belt service must be done. The last belt service was done a few thousand miles but about five years ago. The car only has 16,000 miles on it and sparingly used with a lot of care. When I picked up the car I noticed that the car lacked power and it sounded unlike a ferrari. i have heard small sedans sound more powerful. As i quickly examined the rear panel of the car seat was totally undisturbed. i had left a few markers and my belongings in the rear net, all of which appeared to be in the exact identical position when i had dropped the car off.
    1. is it possible to replace timing belts without accessing them through the panel rear of the seats?
    2. is there any other way to find out if the belts were changed at all.
    3. Is there anyone who has experienced similar incident.
    4. I am planning on pursuing it legally.
    5. I asked an independent mechanic to see if the beltss were replaced , he wants another 2,000 in labor.
    6. Any comments/help/assistance would be much appreciated.
    7. I plan on pursuing it to the point where Ferrari mechanics stopped taking advantage of ferrari owners.
     
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  2. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    Jul 12, 2013
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    Steve
    What a great first post ... I'm going to make some popcorns.
     
  3. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
    Project Master

    Oct 29, 2005
    4,241
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    If a cam belt has been done without due care you'll notice a distinct drop in power. So many cars running around Low on power due to off timing.

    You can use an SD3 or Leonardo to see the cam timing on both banks.
     
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  4. RANDY6005

    RANDY6005 Formula 3
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    Jan 9, 2017
    2,267
    Jacksonville
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    RANDY
    The guy who wants two grand to see if the belts where replaced sounds as bad as F dealer . I can tell you I will never ever take mind to a F dealer again !! Before I ever spend any money on my 360 it may take me a month or so to get educated on what need to be done and what you should you pay or if you can do it your self so you never get rip off .
     
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  5. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2018
    322
    Stoney Creek, Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Dom
    What does your invoice say? You should be replacing more than just the belts. You can remove the rear cover behind the seats and may be able to look for a date code marking on the belts. Did the shop give you your old parts?
     
  6. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    The invoice says all belts were changed(p/s, alt/ water pump timing control belt etc.) The rear panel was never opened nor the under tray. The old parts did not come out of my car, the tensioners looked very old and crusted, did not look as if it came out of the car afresh and other tell tale signs. I am not comfortable driving it cuz' i am sure they did not work on it. However, in all fairness they sure washed it. The most expensive wash I have yet had. ($4000)
     
  7. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2018
    322
    Stoney Creek, Ontario, Canada
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    Dom
    I would go back to them with tour concerns. Maybe they got your car mixed up with another
     
  8. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 Veteran
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    Jul 8, 2016
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    Took the words right out of my mouth
     
  9. MD355

    MD355 Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2004
    794
    Athens, Greece
    Full Name:
    MD
    This sounds horrible.. Is there a chance that they removed the panel, replaced the belts and put back all of your items in the exact same position ? (I believe that when you remove the firewall, everything comes out together, so maybe they didn’t bother with your items and just removed the panel to do the work... With regards to changing belts, the only way to do it is with panel out... Otherwise you need to remove whole engine, which I doubt was your case)
     
  10. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2018
    322
    Stoney Creek, Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Dom
    On a spider you have to remove the 2 screwes removing each storage net, then remove the small rear storage compartment and mechanism, remove the 2 carpeted areas behind the seats covering electricsl controls and relays, then you can pull the rear cover off. The screws for the cargo nets go through the leather trim right into the firewall cover.
     
  11. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    i appreciate all who took time or cared to even read it. I just want to drive the car without apprehension of an engine breakdown if the belts break. The rear panel was not disturbed, the Car ran and sounds un-ferrari like, the service manager was elusive, would not answer questions the whole episode was unnerving, one does not expect and now they will cover their tracks somehow. i had put a scotch tape on the seat rails and around the rear panel, that was undisturbed. If the belts cannot be replaced without removing the rear panel then I only know one fact that the rear panel was not removed unless the mechanics also happened to be magicians or forensic experts.
     
  12. Rhoads56

    Rhoads56 Karting
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    Mar 19, 2015
    189
    Perth, Australia
    Full Name:
    Perry
    $4000 usd?

    I just had belts and tensioners, all fluids (engine, gearbox, brakes), and a new alarm ($500 or so) done for $2700 Aussie through our official dealer. That’s $1900 usd. Jag loaner car, and a 488 to drive for an hour or so while they replaced the alarm at the last minute. By the time I got home I had a free track day invite in my inbox too.


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  13. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Sep 1, 2013
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    Western Mass
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    Raimondo
    Just curious How do u know the under tray wasn’t removed?


    And why would you put scotch tape on the access panel, I understand what you wanted to accomplish, but why were you expecting a problem? Sounds a bit paranoid. Maybe you’re a spy or been watching James bond movies? Why didn’t you state that in a prior post. Starting to sound Fishy.



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  14. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    May 20, 2018
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    If belts are new you should be able to tell by visual inspection.
     
  15. imahorse

    imahorse F1 Rookie
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    Nov 25, 2017
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    Unfortunately this sort of thing isn't exactly rare. It might be possible to do the belts from the bottom, but it makes no sense as to why anyone would make the job extremely difficult. The timing belts have a date code on them. When I did mine they were 20 years old Haha. To get to them you'll have to remove the back panel which is held in by 10 bolts IIRC. There will be a coolant pipe in between the firewall and timing covers. IIRC you should be able to get one of the timing covers off without pulling out the pipe. The cover should be held in by 3 screws. I don't remember offhand how to decipher the date code, but I believe Aldous Voice did an article on it. Sorry to hear about this. It's unfortunate some shops prey on exotic owners because they think they have limitless money. It is wrong.
     
  16. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    I paid for work to be done
    Sir, what is fishy about it? i paid about four thousand dollars for the work that was not done. If the car ran right I would not have even noticed it. I don't have the knowledge or the tools to work on this car so I rely on professionals. read my first post again I did state that "i had left a "few markers" and my belongings in the rear net, all of which appeared to be in the exact identical position when i had dropped the car off." It is unlawful for any mechanic to charge for work that have not done. I intend to hold them accountable.
     
  17. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    Thanks for your post. If the belts can last 20 years, then why do the shops insist on changing it every three years? That in itself is curious. How much should be a reasonable charge to have the belts inspected by another ferrari shop? I was quoted $2000 by one, I think that is excessive.
     
  18. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    There’s a bit of inconsistency. If they did not remove the panel, how could they have mistimed the belts? Did they change the belts and mistime them? But how, without removing the cover?


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  19. Mimmo Blue

    Mimmo Blue Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2018
    322
    Stoney Creek, Ontario, Canada
    Full Name:
    Dom
    It depends on what you mean by inspect the belts. In order to just remove and replace the rear cover and look to see if new parts have been installed, then more like an hour of labour. If you want to inspect to see if the belts are installed properly and the timing hasn't been changed improperly then that would be more work.
    To remove the rear cover is something anyone can simply do themself. Don't be afraid, it's not difficult. If you can tie your own shoes you can do that. You only need one Allen head wrench to remove the screws for the cargo nets, and one socket to remove the inspection cover.
     
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  20. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    The whole purpose is that the mech. shops should stand behind their work and should be open to redoing it within the warranted period, not start blaming the consumer. As someone indicated the timing is adjusted with sd3 or leonardo, I don't know if they had those tools or used it to adjust timing. I am still trying to figure out if there is another way to change belts from underneath the car. All I know is that the rear panel was not opened, so it is my belief the timing belts were not serviced. I was expecting the car to run better after spending a substantial amount.
     
  21. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Sep 1, 2013
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    So questions still remain:

    -how do u know the under tray wasn’t removed?

    -why would you anticipate a rip off and put tape on the access panel?

    - if you didn’t trust the shop and felt you had to put tape on why not look for a different shop instead of trying to catch them doing something dishonest.

    -why wait until now to disclose you used tape to prove you were ripped off. If you had that smoking gun for a rip off why wait to disclose it.

    Fishy, just smells like something else is going on here.




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  22. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
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    Oct 29, 2010
    19,892
    Wyoming
    #22 arizonaitalian, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    BS meter is rising on this one. Take the panel off and check the date codes or pay someone to do it - call around - you will find someone with a reasonable price. Heck, ask the dealer to take them off and show you while you observe them.

    edit: if I noticed what the OP says he noticed, I would have taken the car back and described it all. I would have insisted on observing them show me the timing on the SD3 and the date codes on the belts. Messy situation. But not one that you can ignore...you gotta check the timing and belts if the car is running/sounding as the OP describes. Driving it like that is not an option. So, either at the dealer or at a new indy, you gotta check those things out asap.
     
  23. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,892
    Wyoming
    The parts alone in the USA are in that range you mention for that service. Labor adds another $2k+. A full "major" on a 360 with new belts and tensioners and all fluids and filters is usually more than $4000.

    At $4k, the OP got a good price (presuming that price is for the so-called "major" included the fluids and filters - if its merely the belts/tensioners, then its on the high side vs average, but not for an authorized dealer where you don't get any discounts).
     
  24. Joship

    Joship Rookie

    Jun 10, 2017
    15
    So Cal
    I am trying to find out if someone else had an issue like that, my experience has been horrible in the past and this time was not any different. I did ask other shops one quoted me 6-7 thousand. This one was cheaper.
     
  25. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

    Nov 21, 2015
    1,911
    Ontario, The Real One in Canada
    Full Name:
    Lars!
    I think the question is, if the work hasn’t been done at all, as you suggest, then why does the car seem to run worse? Should it not run the exact same as when you brought it in?
    Or was it running poorly when you brought it it? If so, new belts wouldn’t likely change that.
     
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