GPF is in Pista

Will ask lots of questions at Universo

 

As I said, unless Pista production goes beyond 2021, no GPF. They are not required to run GPF as it's a pre-2020 homologation.

The F8 is homologated for post-2020 regulations as production will carry on into mid year 2021.

Generally speaking, these rules are not meant to effect current or older models - same with cats etc.

Seeing how hard Ferrari is working to pump.out the Pistas currently, I highly doubt that they will "waste time" implementing unnecessary GPFs in the Pista cars - that is if our man Scraggy isn't right and Ferrari has managed to slip the GPF in under the radar

 

The only caveat to that information is that there is a time limit for cars homologated under previous rules to be sold while the new regulations are in force. It’s called a derogation and so Pista and Spider will either have to have a GPF added or they are forced to finish production by a certain time (including production of the derogated cars). Not sure how it applies to Ferrari but individual member states in Europe tend to set their own derogation rules within certain parameters. For example the UK’s formula could be 10% of total volume for 9 months beyond the new regulation introduction.

Therefore it is likely to be quite complicated because a manufacturer has to produce the right amount of cars, in the right spec, for the right market, in good time. Comparatively easy (!) for a large manufacturer with few model/spec variants, they just say we need 1,000 black, red and silver in the UK, 1,200 in Germany etc. I would have thought it could be very complicated for Ferrari with Atelier, TM and individually spec’d cars, which almost all of them are.

Everything we have heard about Pista seems to indicate this GPF situation has made production more scarce than they would have liked because they must stop it early - this has been the word coming out of Ferrari and its dealers since the car’s introduction. Combined with an unusual third variant on the same platform, the F8 with GPF, you start to build a picture that Pista will all be non-GPF. Obviously I respect Scraggy’s comments and wonder how that can be possible but maybe there are other things we don’t know about, seems unlikely though? I have previously thought they wouldn’t do an F8 VS but maybe they will decide to so that they make up for lost Pista production?

 

488 had a sound generator from day one , it is something McLaren did/does also . Looks from design to be to improve induction sounds.

 

Where?

 

I understand what you are saying but there are folks that are saying that Pista production will continue into 2020 summer of 2020. Now what?

 

Post 38 on this thread has a diagram (just saw myself after posting)

 

Sorry, but I do not find any accuracy to the "pre-2020 homologation" reference at all.

After all, if that were in any way accurate, why this:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

and, if in any way accurate, why did all the majors whose GPF requirement (really, the particular matter regulation where the only viable solution for GDI ICE is fitment with GPF) was from September 2018 shut down production of all products that did not comply including termination of existing product that were not going to be brought into compliance for the September 2018 implementation?

https://europe.autonews.com/article/20180809/ANE/180809791/automakers-pull-models-halt-output-as-wltp-deadline-roils-european-market

https://www.globalfleet.com/en/manufacturers/europe/features/wltp-rde-cause-serious-production-bottlenecks

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/content/clean-mobility-new-emissions-tests-become-mandatory-all-new-cars-1-september-2018_en

from:
https://www.bmw.in/en/topics/Fascination-BMW/consumption-emissions.html
From September 2018, all manufactureers will be obliged to test in accordance with WLTP for vehicles sold in the EU as well as in Switzerland, Turkey, Norway, Liechtenstein, Israel and Ireland.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/tech/what-is-wltp-worldwide-harmonised-light-vehicle-test-procedure-explained/

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/financial-models/europe/features/wltp-d-day-nears-its-bargain-time?a=DQU04&t[0]=NEDC&t[1]=WLTP&t[2]=Diesel&t[3]=NEDC correlated&t[4]=Euro 6d TEMP&curl=1
link above provides this fascinating detail:
The model is “end of series”. OEMs can request an exception (derogation) for a volume that equals 10 percent of their total sales volume of last year. Cars that are on this derogation list can keep their NEDC type approval, but they must be sold before September 1st 2019.


So, based on that, if Ferrari, for instance, produced 2000 Pistas in calendar year 2019 (a made up number) they would be allowed to carry over 200 (10%) as calendar year 2020 production...so, if the above is true and Pista meets the 'end of series' qualification, now you know why the mad rush to produce as many Pistas this year as they can...to 'earn' the right to make 10% of that total into calendar year 2020 and must be sold by, my assumption, September 1, 2020...I think that is the clearest definition of what may be occurring

Ferrari petitioned the EU and received a derogation (RDE/WLTP) lasting 16 months....we are currently operating within Ferrari's derogation period to expire at the end of this year...for full RDE/WLTP compliance (Ferrari, separately, has a different CO2 basis for its fines while it maintains its SVM status of under 10,000 units per year which they technically still are)

Please remember that Ferrari's derogation (RDE/WLTP) is already set to expire on 1/1/2020:
https://corporate.ferrari.com/sites/ferrari15ipo/files/ferrari_nv_annual_report_12.31.2018.pdf
(starting bottom of page 59)

Exhaust and evaporative emissions requirements

In 2007, the European Union adopted a series of updated standards for emissions of other air pollutants from passenger and light commercial vehicles, such as nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and particulates. These standards were phased in from September 2009 (Euro 5) and September 2014 (Euro 6) for passenger cars. In 2016, the European Union established that Euro 6 limits shall be evaluated through Real Driving Emissions (RDE) measurement procedure and a new test-cycle more representative of normal conditions of use (Worldwide Light Vehicles Test Procedure). SVMs (vehicle manufacturers with a worldwide annual production lower than 10,000 units) are required to be compliant with RDE standards starting from 2020 while non-SVMs have been required to comply with RDE standards starting from 2017.

 

Excellent analysis.

 

This makes sense!! Finally. 10% of production can be carried over to 2020.

Thank you!

 

Excellent analysis. I have to say that you know more about this issue than anyone I’ve asked including my salesman, techs, service manager and dealer principal.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

I remember that from when I had a McLaren. I wasn’t aware it was on the 488. The induction arrangement enhancing sound in the cabin is not a terrible idea, but playing noises through the speaker would be. The closer you get to artificially doing things the worse it all feels but maybe you could argue that all the pops and bangs you get with turbo exhausts are artificial anyway. Still don’t really like it.

 

The M5 played it through the speakers, very sad. I am surprised Ferrari thought it necessary to do anything. Mine is plenty loud even with the top up but I drive top down as much as possible so I don't notice the "sound generator", LOL!

 

So they have legitimately passed a law that limits the volume for the sole purpose of making cars quieter? You’ve got to be kidding me. What the hell is wrong with people?

As much as I hate the idea of the GPF, at least it serves an actual purpose and reduces emissions. Limiting sound for the sake of limiting sound.... I’m speechless. These politicians need to stop taking crazy pills and actually think about what they’re doing. At this point, I have little to no faith in my life long passion for cars.

Looks like I will need to find a new hobby, rather than risk being called insensitive by folks who have disdain towards those of us who enjoy the finer things in life. Even if I don’t focus on the future and direct my passion towards older cars before regulation effed everything up, I risk being looked down upon by those morally superior people who know better than to drive a noisy old Ferrari.


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Yes, I also believe 458 has such a generator as well. I found it distracting at first. My solution: make the exhaust louder!

Excellent analysis, thank you. As to the pic of the 812 with the testing rig- likely testing for 812 Spider and likely 812 SF built after the Aug break?

 

Thank you,
Yes, the 812 RDE/WLTP testing rig (that photo from October 2018) is simply due to the 812 'continuing production' past 1/1/2020 (and not yet end-of-series), I suspect the results will be used for V12 Lussos as well has 812 Spider and the results will influence the design of any potential 812 VS which would presumably have a different engine, however, seems to be running out of time to be announced and produced (rumors range from end of 812 production July 2020 to July 2021, I suspect the latter or just beyond). I have no confirmations that the 812VS will actually occur, I hope it does! There was a rumor started in France/Germany that the 812VS would only be available only in the USA, presumably due to GPF and lack of requirement of automatic emergency braking that is occurring otherwise:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

Based on all I have been told by various sources over the past several months, Ferrari will use MY2020 as the starting point for GPF inclusion (rather than calendar date 1/1/2020) in all continuing models (i.e. not Monza and not Pista since both will be end-of-series models).

 

FWIW just had a fun chat with an SA, came across a Pista in the showroom and he mentioned he's thinking Ferrari is pumping the Pista out as we speak for the emissions/GPF issue

Mentioned quite a few landing and faster than expected with majority of production ending this year and a small portion more in early 2020

 

Very disappointing if 812 VS only available in the US.

 

Agreed, but it was first "floated" by a Ferrari dealer in France and then in Germany so may have been "testing the waters", not sure.

However, given the average power loss is between 4% and 8% for GPF and the fact the Monza is rated at 809 hp; 820 PS and the 812 rated at 789 hp; 800 PS

that would presume to mean that with GPF fitted and no other change the 812 would become, at a conservative 4% power loss, 757 hp; 768 PS

and, for comparison, if same done to the Monza engine, also at 4% loss, would become 776 hp; 787 PS

remember, that's if the loss is only 4% and not higher, that means, the 'pre-GPF' power would have to be 822 hp; 833 PS just to have the same net resulting power as the current V12 in the 812SF

now, considering that any 812VS would have to have even more power means, pre-GPF Ferrari would need to find their way to something like 850 hp; 862 PS just to net 816 hp; 827 PS

pretty tall order isn't it?

so, because of GPF the 812VS, theoretically would need to increase power by 61 hp; 62 PS !! From a block they are already pushing to the maximum...all for what seems to be a minimal (net) gain of 27 hp; 27 PS...

however

if we use the same ratio of power of the F12B (731) to F12TDF (769) that would mean an 812VS would have 859 hp; 871 PS and with the 4% (conservative net loss due to GPF) factor would mean that engine would need to put out 894 hp; 907 PS

that would seem nearly impossible to do

so, I am concerned Ferrari will not do an 812VS because they 'cannot get there' powerwise to make it "make sense" with the GPF devices inhibiting airflow of the exhaust (huge back pressure)

I really wonder what hp / PS rating the 812 Spider and MY2020 812s will have with GPF fitted, I could see how they could increase the 812's power to be 822 hp; 833 PS (pre-GPF) just to keep the same power rating as the MY2019 models...

or, does Ferrari do nothing and the MY2020 and later 812s simply have less power?

big guess is they up the power for MY2020 to compensate for the GPF devices, but, then they don't do an 812VS because they cannot get there with the power required to make the car special, it's always about the engine, always in a VS model...

 

Or work on weight reduction as an alternative. I for one would be far more excited about 200kg less weight than 50 more bhp

 

The power increase wasn't huge on the 458 > speciale ? Now when you talk Turbo they can easily find a way, As long as they don't do BS water injection , Porsche has ?

 

(570 vs 597) on a percentage basis it was 4.7% increase (F12B -> F12TDF = 5.12%, so close to same) and the Speciale engine was massively updated in many ways vs the Italia engine as was the TDF engine (XX program parts, etc)

I do not believe they will turbocharge the 6.5L V12, that engineering cost would never be recouped in a single 812VS run (maybe if also used in an icona/hypercar though) and with the future of the V12 in doubt per Michael Leiters (i.e. the man in charge of Ferrari engine development), and the unlikely possibility they will find 500 pounds or more to trim from the 812 to make a "superlight" VS...well, it will be quite interesting to see what Ferrari does or does not do..

 

Or perhaps they do a reverse-Monza whereby the VS is road legal in NA and other non-GPF regions, and off-road only in Europe (& China)? Sales volume would be biased to those non-GPF regions, but so be it.

 

If that happened it would be a dent in their ego that they could not make such a car work with GPF, but, if ego is cast out and it's all about the bottom line, this makes a lot of sense, but since many EU owners are drivers they would not like this option...in that case may be best to stick with the coupe and spider and let the 812 finish production without a VS, less engineering cost and same revenue

One more caveat to consider is the "wrinkle" presented by the SF90, 1000HP (albeit it's not 'really 1000hp' you can always use at all, but, it's the number that matters)...so, if an 812VS appears and it does not "top" 1000HP then Ferrari may have a hard time convincing purchasers to pay a hefty premium over a fully-loaded SF90, afterall, a heavily loaded SF90 appears to be in the 650K range with all options and then some and many F12TDFs were in the 650-730K range, which, to me, would mean an 812VS fully optioned would be 800K or more...trouble is selling that as being less powerful than the SF90...

but, who knows, can't wait to find out

 

I don’t think lower power versus the SF90 is really relevant since the SF90 sits above the 812 according to Ferrari. A front V12 with even no increase in horsepower but a much harder-core driving experience and less weight still has a market in my view. They may not agree but are we really saying circa 800hp is not enough? I think there are diminishing returns here and the work they can do on making the existing engine more responsive and the drive more aggressive will justify an increased cost with a smaller production run.