812 Spider

The problem is Ferrari is using a 3rd party for the AEB and those systems are full of disclaimers and in real life experiences, out right failures to the point of causing accidents...so completely unwelcome this immature not-ready-for-use nonsense that is now mandated (MY2020) in 40 countries:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/

https://www.harmonyhonda.com/product-and-feature-disclaimers/
Collision Mitigation Breaking System (CMBS)
The Collision Mitigation Breaking System (CMBS) is designed to reduce the severity of an unavoidable collision. CMBS does not prevent collisions nor stop the vehicle automatically and may not activate or detect a vehicle in certain circumstances. CMBS may not activate in all circumstances and cannot detect all objects ahead and may not detect a given object; accuracy will vary based on weather, speed and other factors. It is still your responsibility to operate the brake pedal and steering wheel appropriately according to the driving conditions and avoiding collisions. System operation may be affected by extreme interior heat. System operation may be affected by extreme interior heat.

And the coup de grâce:

Search for: automatic braking failure

and, if you track your car, you must be able to disable it or they will not let you out, hopefully Ferrari will allow this without putting the car into CT-OFF mode...
https://jalopnik.com/new-car-safety-tech-is-already-banning-bmws-from-race-t-1794217581

https://pcapotomac.org/activities/tech-inspection

 

As I've previously posted, I've been in a car when the automatic emergency braking engaged by mistake. Jarring, shocking, and dangerous. I'll never buy a car that has this "feature."

 

I agree, a lot more than 500 since there a 5 days of 2 sessions each. I don't think the number invited means much for the production numbers anyway for a non-limited edition car.. For example, SF90 had a take up rate of a bit less than 50% of the invitees according to my dealer and yet I imagine they will sell a lot more beyond those invited.

 

I see your point, but I think this "feature" will eventually become like air bags. We still see some horrific injuries from air bags and many more with hearing loss etc, but on the other side there are many lives saved. Not everyone will want it, but will become mandatory.

 

"ACTIVE SAFETY FEATURES" = Help to prevent or mitigate road crashes. (AEB)

"PASSIVE SAFETY FEATURES" = Help to protect vehicle occupants once a crash has occurred. (Air bags)

You are comparing two completely different categories of "features." AEB takes control of the vehicle away from the driver. Air bag does not.

So, you really think, as a driver, complete forfeiture of vehicle control makes it more "safe"? That is very interesting.

If saving lives is the goal, as you've stated, then why not instead add a new "feature" to all cars that instantly blocks cell phone signal the moment the engine is started, thus rendering phone inoperable during vehicle operation? That would save way more lives than AEB, as recent studies indicate that distracted drivers as a result of phone usage while driving has directly caused dramatic spike in collisions - and that phone-distracted drivers are just as dangerous (or perhaps more dangerous) than drug or alcohol intoxicated drivers.

Why should those of us who are CAPABLE and ATTENTIVE drivers be penalized for the idiotic behavior of INCAPABLE and INATTENTIVE drivers, by being forced to forfeit control of our own vehicles via "features" such as AEB?

 

As for 'reduction in insurance premiums', I would not count on that, in fact, rates could skyrocket!

These systems are unreliable and must be properly maintained and calibrated, that's presuming they even properly work in the first place and currently AEB does not, many disclaimers, recalls, out right failures...

These systems add significant costs to bumper/headlight repairs and windshield repairs, not to mention out right theft:
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/07/manhattan-luxury-car-side-mirror-thefts/

These systems can cause confusion in litigation (see below)

check these learned concerns:

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/15/728256381/why-safer-cars-dont-lead-to-cheaper-car-insurance-yet

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2019/07/26/534008.htm
excerpt: State Farm (an insurance company) in a statement said it did not offer discounts specific to advanced driver assistance systems and that future rates would be shaped by a variety of factors, including safety, regulation, underwriting, liability and repair costs.

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/702660/Insurance/ADAS+and+the+insurance+industry
excerpt, did you realize this?:
Of course ADAS will impact the frequency and severity of crashes. They also have the potential to change the legal responsibility for automobile accidents. Currently, the driver of an automobile is responsible for the operation of the vehicle. In most cases, the owner of the vehicle is vicariously responsible for the driver's negligence.

However, as ADAS become more common, drivers will surrender more and more of their driving to these systems. So, when accident claims arise they will more frequently involve vehicle manufacturers and the suppliers of the ADAS as defendants. Liability will shift from the driver to the manufacturer.

Currently, car insurance rates are dictated by the cost of the vehicle, the driving record of the insureds, the annual mileage put on the vehicle, and the location of the vehicle. As the sophistication of these systems evolve, these criteria will be superseded by the ratings of the ADAS in insured vehicles. When these systems fail or an accident occurs in spite of them, the cost of litigation will increase. Courts will not be asked to evaluate the relatively simple question of the negligence of the driver, but rather will be obliged to determine whether such systems were negligently designed, manufactured or maintained. Such litigation is dramatically more expensive. If past history is any indication, manufacturers are much more likely to fight such claims through to trial.

https://www.the-digital-insurer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/737-HERE_Swiss-Re_white-paper_final.pdf
excerpt:
5. Premiums As car connectivity and ADAS in principle lead to a reduction in expected losses for insurers, overall insurance premiums for drivers should decrease . In a recent survey, 45% of insurance executives indicated that as driverless vehicles enter the marketplace they expect to reduce premiums on personal auto insurance. However, in judging the impact of the transition towards highly automated vehicles insurers need to be alert to the potential for large unexpected losses that cannot be addressed simply by pooling risks over a large number of policyholders (and investing the associated premiums in available financial assets). Greater autonomy in motoring changes the nature of insured risks with the result that overall aggregate loss outcomes may not become any more predictable and may indeed become more variable.

Insurers say no discounts for ADAS:
https://www.globalfleet.com/en/technology-and-innovation/north-america/features/insurers-say-no-discounts-adas
excerpt:
But ADAS-equipped vehicles are also the most expensive, in terms of capital cost, maintenance and repair. Plus, they introduce a raft of complications for maintenance management. Previously simple repairs come with new complexities, such as calibration of the ADAS system.

Clearly the business case for and against ADAS cannot include cheaper insurance premiums. Reductions in accident frequency and severity could eventually offset higher repair costs and insurance rates may reflect this but it’s doubtful insurers will ever offer discounts for ADAS-equipped vehicles.

 

Spyshots? Anyone??

 

It is scary to saw the least. It also can be deactivated - at least in my new Lusso. Saw it today when cleaning it and playing around with the settings.

 

Re. The discussion of invitation to the reveal being indicative of an allocation available to the invitee:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought at least one member here had the experience of being invited to a VIP reveal (TDF?) and then not receiving an allocation.
Are we presuming this situation is different here because the car on offer is not in the same exclusive category as a TDF?

 

On the Lusso it was an option...not a government mandate, that starts MY2020 (for most countries outside USA and India), thus the concern what if can no longer be disabled...

Short video segment ( car guys tv on youtube )
13min10s

not only is automatic emergency braking dangerous it is annoying, not really what you want in an exotic purchase...

 

Maybe it will be the same. But for now the dealers don’t know how many cars they get. So it can be limited by number, limited in production or a car that is available for everybody with a waiting list of 2 years.

I’m my opinion is one thing clear. If you want one fast act fast

 

May be I did not express myself clearly, but what you say makes total sense. I meant, the argument by used by regulators/policy makers on these issues ultimately ends up restricting the freedoms for everyone because their argument always has a "saves lives" headline, and so is deemed by them to be good for everyone. It's the same whether it is speed humps in cities or miles and miles of average speed cameras on our highways. To punish the few that offend/break the law, everybody pays.

The days of motoring as an expression of individual freedom are fast becoming a distant memory, unfortunately.

PS Not that it matters here, but from a regulatory/legal point of view an airbag is classified as an active safety feature while a seat belt is passive. AEB is classified as active too. Just like AEB now, in the early days people argued for ability to have control over its deployment because not all believe(d) it was safe.

 

Has anyone received the details for the Universo Ferrari preview on the 5th?

 

No details as of yet. Dinner on the 4th evening. Preview and dinner on the 5th is all I’ve received.

 

Hey Rookie

Some of us prefer top down driving...especially in the mountains...you can see so much more of them. You can hear the exhaust/engine music so much better as well. And it feels like you are going faster. If some people didn’t like top down driving Ferrari wouldn’t make spiders.

And you can actually put the top up. It’s like having two cars in one.

 

Could make sense - use the trip as bait as long as mutually understood can’t harm

 

I see what you mean and I agree it makes perfect sense hence why this would the first time i would consider the spider v12 NA engine and better music what can be better than that... the really wondered which one between the 812 spider and the sf90 spider will be the one to go for... tough question

 

I can’t see how Ferrari will so an SF90 Spider since the space between seats and engine is taken up by a battery pack. Nowhere to stow the roof. In fact no place even for bags.



Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

There's further damning coverage of AEB in WSJ today (subscription required): https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-automatic-brakes-become-common-so-do-driver-complaints-11566898205

Some excerpts:
- The NHTSA has fielded more than 400 individual complaints in the last 3 years from drivers of vehicles made by Nissan, Volkswagen, Honda, and others who experienced improper deployments of their AEB systems. I'm certain that there are many more drivers whose experiences haven't been formally registered.
- Most are from drivers saying they have had trouble with the AEB deploying suddenly when there is no evidence of danger
- 14 complaints involved a crash, with most involving the car braking so suddenly that it was rear-ended by a trailing vehicle
- One driver lost complete control, spun out, and crashed into a guardrail
- Some AEB mistakes caused cars to stop unexpectedly over a railroad crossing
- Manufacturers have often had trouble fixing the systems despite multiple returns to the dealerships and software updates
- Auto manufacturers have recalled nearly 180,000 vehicles in the U.S. since 2015 to fix issues with their automatic braking systems. "The volume of complaints is notable for a new safety feature intended to prevent accidents", said Jason Levine, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety in D.C.

IMHO, none of these "protective" systems are ready for prime-time, and they are particularly inappropriate and potentially dangerous on a purpose-built sports car like a Ferrari. Our cars are often driven in a more spirited manner, and the carbon ceramic brakes are pretty damn grabby compared to the more typical cast-iron models found on most cars. I also have many curious onlookers unfortunately follow pretty closely to snap pics or gawk, and I doubt most of their cars can brake as well as a Ferrari that suddenly and incorrectly deploys its AEB in response to a phantom threat. I also suspect that these early systems could become future maintenance nightmares for any owner that keeps the car long-term.

I will not buy any future Ferrari equipped with this nonsense. To Hell with the nanny state and its misguided feel-good initiatives.

 

You beat me to the punch, I was just preparing to post....

 

As Automatic Braking Becomes More Common in Cars, So Do Driver Complaints

Automatic emergency-braking systems that are promoted as a safety feature in vehicles don’t always work as intended and at times activate when there is no risk of a crash, drivers say.

Drivers have reported several hundred incidents to U.S. regulators in recent years of these brakes malfunctioning or not deploying properly, highlighting the challenges car makers face in introducing new technologies that automate more of a car’s driving functions.
The automatic braking features use cameras, sensors and radar to detect objects and can hit the brakes if the driver doesn’t act fast enough. Safety advocates say the technology has significantly reduced accidents and can save lives, and auto makers view such crash-avoidance systems as a critical part of developing autonomous cars.

But the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has fielded more than 400 individual complaints in the last three years from drivers of vehicles made by Nissan Motor Co. , Volkswagen AG , Honda Motor Co. and other major car manufacturers flagging auto-braking problems, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of the agency’s public database.

Most are from drivers saying they have had trouble with the automatic brakes deploying suddenly when there is no evidence of danger—at highway speeds, in some cases. Some drivers also reported braking systems failing to engage as expected in the presence of a threat.

A car's cameras, sensors or radar can detect an object ahead, alert the driver and apply the brakes to avoid or mitigate a crash.
Vehicle detects object within close range ahead and alerts driver of imminent collision.

BRAKES APPLIED
Automatic braking system activates if driver fails to respond to collision alert.
Fourteen complaints involved a crash, with most of those drivers describing the car braking so suddenly it was rear-ended by a trailing vehicle. One driver reported losing control of the car when it unexpectedly hit the brakes at highway speed, causing it to spin out and crash into a guardrail.

No fatalities were reported in the complaints, but three indicated the crashes resulted in injury. Another 18 people reported being hurt by the abruptness of the car activating the brakes without a collision. Some drivers also complained the feature stopped their car unexpectedly over a railroad crossing.

Cynthia Walsh, the owner of a 2018 Nissan Rogue, said she was driving the sport-utility vehicle on the highway in February at 65 miles an hour when the car slammed on the brakes for no apparent reason.

“I was so scared,” Ms. Walsh said. “I was in tears.”

She took the vehicle to the dealership twice for fixes, but she said the problem persists. Now, she said, she is frightened to drive it.
NHTSA this spring began investigating the Rogue’s auto-braking feature after the Center for Auto Safety, a membership-based advocacy group, petitioned the agency to open a defect probe, citing 87 complaints of false braking activations. The center has argued the incidents are a safety risk and the vehicles should be recalled.

Nissan said it is cooperating with NHTSA and has identified problems with brakes improperly deploying in certain road conditions, such as railroad crossings, bridges and low-hanging traffic lights, on its 2017 and 2018 Nissan Rogue and Rogue Sport vehicles. The car company is asking owners to bring the affected vehicles to dealerships for a software fix. The action, which isn’t a recall but a voluntary customer-service campaign, covers more than half a million of the SUVs.

Nissan said Ms. Walsh’s vehicle received the recommended software update and it continues to work with her.

Volkswagen said it fully cooperates with NHTSA on any query or investigation and works with dealers to better understand consumer complaints. Honda said it has been in contact with NHTSA regarding its auto-braking technology and there are currently no defects.
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a group backed by car insurers, said in June that the rate of rear-end collisions was 50% lower for cars equipped with automatic braking. The group estimates the feature will prevent 28,000 crashes and 12,000 injuries by 2025.

NHTSA said auto braking can reduce the severity of crashes and help save lives, but warned the technology isn’t defined uniformly within the auto industry and the agency will closely monitor data sources for safety risks.

Often, the systems vary in both their capabilities and how they operate, and there is little standardization on what they are called, creating confusion among drivers.

“There is a ridiculous number—some 40 different names for automatic emergency braking,” said Greg Brannon, director of auto engineering at AAA. “It leads to a high degree of consumer confusion.”

Auto manufacturers have recalled nearly 180,000 vehicles in the U.S. since 2015 to fix issues with their automatic braking systems, according to the Center for Auto Safety, which is based in Washington.

The volume of complaints is notable for a new safety feature intended to prevent accidents, said Jason Levine, the center’s executive director.

Automatic emergency braking is among a number of new active-safety technologies emerging in newer cars that aim to help prevent crashes. The new technologies can also, for example, steer a car back into the lane if it drifts and alert drivers to cars passing in their blind spot.

Regulators have been pushing such technologies as a way to reduce traffic fatalities. Nearly all auto makers have pledged to make automatic-emergency braking standard across their lineups by 2022.

An estimated 44.5% of all 2018 model-year vehicles sold in the U.S.—about 7.6 million—were equipped with automatic emergency brakes, according to Wards Intelligence, a data analytics firm.

There is a learning curve for drivers. Many aren’t even aware their car has the technology, much less know if it is working correctly, industry analysts say.

Some automatic braking systems activate for pedestrians, while others engage only for other cars. Some try to avoid a collision entirely, while others aim only to slow the car and reduce the impact of a crash.

Auto makers say automatic braking mishaps are often the result of “false positives”—the vehicle’s computer getting confused by a nonthreatening object like an overhead sign or a shadow and triggering the brakes.

Calibrating the car’s detection software to be discerning enough to identify hazards but filter everything else out is a challenge, said Wayne Powell, vice president of electronic systems at Toyota Motor Corp. ’s North America division. Toyota now includes automatic braking on more than 90% of the cars it sells in the U.S.

“Getting it to not put on the brakes when it shouldn’t is a very, very hard problem,” Mr. Powell said. “If your car is putting on the brakes all the time unnecessarily, you won’t trust your car.”

 

it was $29,000 for a matte color paint

 

So if your car inappropriately slams on the brakes...and someone gets hurt...they get sued...right?
Hopefully, and I hate to say this, the lawyers (*throws up in mouth*) will apply the appropriate 'brakes' to the system.

 

Not really sure how this relates to my post?