California T - Disconnecting the battery for a long time | FerrariChat

California T - Disconnecting the battery for a long time

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by XSpeed, Aug 21, 2019.

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  1. XSpeed

    XSpeed Formula Junior

    Jan 6, 2019
    408
    Full Name:
    SX
    I'll be on vacation for about two weeks and I can't plug a battery conditioner where I live. The dealer told me to disconnect the battery.

    I'm just trying to avoid breaking something accidentally or locking myself out since I'm quite dumb. Is this the correct procedure? Possible to correct if it isn't?

    - Unlock the doors
    - open left door
    - lower the left door window a few centimeters
    - open the front hood using the handle inside the car
    - close the left door
    - open the hood
    - disconnect the battery using the clamp
    - close the hood

    That's it? Do I need to manually lock the car? What is the next step?
     
  2. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
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    A.B
    Open the hood.
    Roll down the window a bit.
    Close the door and lock it with the window down a bit.
    Disconnect the battery and shut the hood.

    Now you can get into the car when you come back without tearing the rubber sill around the window.

    Alternatively, you can also close the windows completely and lock the doors while the hood is open. Then when you have disconnected the battery, leave the hood only half way locked in the latch so that you can get to the battery without opening the car.
     
  3. AD211

    AD211 Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Aug 19, 2017
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    South Carolina
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    Andy
    Would 2 weeks without a tender really be a problem?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  4. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
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    A.B
    If it has a really good battery in it, most likely not. If it has the Ferrari battery, there's a very good chance it won't start. Those OE batteries are absolute garbage.
     
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  5. XSpeed

    XSpeed Formula Junior

    Jan 6, 2019
    408
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    SX
    Thank you for the advice. Did as told. I ll see if everything works when I m back.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
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    Nuno
    Andy, take my word for it: it would.

    The only way it wouldn’t, would if you just bought a new, pristine battery last week and even so, leaving the battery on for 2 weeks without plugging it in, would shorten the battery’s life.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  7. AD211

    AD211 Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Aug 19, 2017
    1,040
    South Carolina
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    Andy
    Thanks Nuno. I leave mine on a tender all the time (from my previous FChat education) but surprised that 2 weeks could be an issue.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
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  8. bml71

    bml71 Karting

    Mar 2, 2019
    88
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Bradd Lewis
    From my experience 100% an issue


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
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    #9 AlfistaPortoghese, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
    You’re welcome, Andy. These are very electronic dependent cars, paired with a below-par OEM battery and an average battery tender at best. Add all three variables, and you get a juice craving car.

    From experience, anything over 7 to 10 straight days of inactivity without plugging the car in, will result in depletion of the battery. Also very dependent on how old your battery is: usually, they die out when they reach the 3 or 4 year old mark, even if plugged in all the time.

    Keep enjoying in good health and have a great weekend!

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  10. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    I think you're partly wrong on that.

    OE batteries are in the cars when they are shipped from the factory, sometimes in a container on a container ship, enroute for weeks either sitting at a terminal or on a ship, without having the benefit of being connected to a charger. I also suspect dealers do not perform adequate checking and then fully charging or replacing those batteries during the PDI. The newer models also use AGM batteries and need to be charged in a different charging mode. Drivers and sometimes, the service mechanics also don't know that.

    That's why most of them quickly go flat in new cars. It's not because they're garbage batteries. In today's world, there are only a very limited number of battery manufacturers (mostly German), so replacement batteries are often just re-branded batteries made by the same factory as the OE.
     
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  11. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
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    A.B

    If it has to do with the transport and cars sitting awaiting PDI in ports etc. how do you explain the battery issues here in Europe with cars that are picked up at the factory or are delivered shortly after completion, and that has been on a tender at the dealer? How do you explain brand new Ferrari batteries installed by dealers because of previous issues, that shows the exact same symptoms only weeks after installation even though they have been on the tender? How do you explain aftermarket batteries that work without issues for years even though they have been discharged fully?

    As far as few manufactures go. Manufactures that produce a product for a company, say Ferrari or perhaps VW, do not necessarily produce the same quality battery. They produce a battery that conforms with the demands and wishes of the OE car manufacture. This can also be very dependant on what the car manufacture is willing to pay. Let's for example say Varta produces a battery for Nissan and one for Peugeot They can be vastly different depending on what Nissan or Peugeot are asking for and willing to pay. Yes there's a ton of rebranded batteries out there, I'm well aware of that, but there's also a lot of batteries produced to individual car manufactures specifications.

    We don't have to agree on this, but I stand by my statement. To me what is going on points to poor quality batteries.
     
  12. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
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    Michael
    Dear A.B., lead acid car batteries, even the AGM variety, are NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. How many decades have we been making lead acid batteries for internal-combustion engines?

    Do you really think factories in Germany (most batteries come from VARTA or Bosch, even the ones sold in N. America) save any money by making garbage batteries instead of batteries that work as well as batteries made in the 1980s or even earlier? Do you really think Ferrari saves money by giving customers garbage batteries that they then have to replace under warranty, paying their dealers (much more expensive) labour hours of work to recharge or replace dead batteries?

    It makes zero business sense to give garbage batteries to customers who pay $250,000+ for cars that remain under warranty for at least 36 months.

    The loss of reputation alone is not worth it. Do you know there is a big cost to the battery maker every time their batteries fail - usual warranty period for a battery is 30 MONTHS (partly pro-rated)? Why do you think they offer 30 months of warranty? How many items do you own that carries a 30 month warranty?

    The biggest problem with car batteries is that nearly all people are clueless about the state of health and capacity of the batteries in their vehicles.

    Do you know the state of health of your car batteries? No. You won't know. You won't, even if you are one of the few who have their car batteries constantly on a battery tender. The reason is because neither you, your car nor even your battery tender can show the state of health of a lead acid battery. Battery chargers only tell you they have completed their charging cycle to the maximum capacity that the battery can still hold but battery capacity drops as batteries age. Chargers do not tell you the condition of your battery. To start with, your charger does not know the original specs of the battery it is charging so it's impossible for it to accurately tell you how much it has degraded, how healthy it is.

    To properly test a car battery you need a special battery tester. I have one made by Midtronics and Ferrari dealers use the same Midtronics unit but made to Ferrari specifications. These testers cost over $1,000 to buy new. They apply a load during the test and automatically test ambient temperature as well as the original specifications of that particular battery. I have posted on this topic before, SEVERAL TIMES.

    Most people act on their emotions instead of applying critical analysis. They get frustrated and feel vulnerable because they don't know, cannot get proper answers and have no one to give proper advice. They feel hapless, unsure of when they will get hit by the same problem again. So in order to protect their feeling of vulnerability, they look for something to direct their frustrations at - they blame something and lay the blame on someone they hope will fix the problem for them. They want a new battery, a "better" one.

    I used to be a medical research scientist and I don't think that way. There are answers to every problem under the Sun but often, we don't know the answer and we will never know many of the answers during our lifetimes. When that happens, all you can do is to increase your understanding of the problem, understand your limitations and keep trying to identify the cause and solution. You avoid casting blame without clear evidence.

    Every year my car is serviced, I pay my dealer to run additional tests on my car, including testing its battery. My Midtronics is used to check the battery in case I encounter a problem at home, to save my having to make a couple of trips as well as several lost driving days.
     
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  13. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    If your car was delivered to you with a partly discharged battery because the dealer failed to check the health of the battery during PDI and then failed to give it a full charge, you start with a HANDICAP. Unless you correct the state of charge on your car battery, it will not perform properly and if you seldom really drive your car, your car battery WILL NEVER WORK PROPERLY and will suffer an early demise.

    This is part of the reason why many FCar owners tell other owners to regularly drive their cars, really give them the beans.

    When you putter around in your car on a battery with a weak charge, you can irreparably damage the battery. One or more of its cells can sulphate and no longer accept a full charge. Sulphation is sometimes reversible but not always. If you tend to seldom drive your car, just putter around, do a lot of idling or make a lot of stops, short trips you battery will continue to discharge and never recharge properly unless you customarily use a proper battery tender, set up with the proper charging mode. These driving habits can also cause a battery to not recharge properly due to a phenomenon called "surface charge".

    The battery tender from Ferrari is meant to work properly when you USE IT ALL THE TIME. That's why they are called TENDERS, not chargers. Ferrari and other makers like Porsche do not spend money on giving "free" battery tenders to their car owners, because they expect them to ignore using them and waste their money. You are supposed to use them all the time, to avoid battery problems and the expensive service visits, battery replacements, customer complaints, damaged brand reputation that will ensue.

    However, if you ignore use of the tender and wait till you have a battery problem and try to use the tender as a charger, the Ferrari battery tender will not correct a damaged battery because it is designed to "tend", not "(re)charge". They are not chargers. A higher-end aftermarket tender/charger from CTEK can correct most of these problems if the battery is not irreversibly damaged. I only use high-end CTEK battery tender/chargers. I believe Ferrari has also been upgrading their rebranded CTEK tenders/chargers but it is technically not Ferrari's responsibility to provide owners with battery chargers. Battery tenders are NOT battery chargers. What's more, if you use chargers incorrectly, you can actually damage the batteries.
     
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  14. XSpeed

    XSpeed Formula Junior

    Jan 6, 2019
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    SX
    What is reason you are not considering any lithium batteries Liteblox or Braille?

    It looks they have very good health reporting too. Should I replace the stock ones with them?
     
  15. R J

    R J Formula Junior

    May 17, 2017
    583
    UK
    In case of interest, my neighbor and I each had exactly the same electrician install exactly the same electrical sockets and meters in our garages. He plugs his F12 in to his socket using the Ferrari re-branded ctek tender that his F12 was supplied with (looks like an MXS 5). I am using the Ferrari re-branded ctek charger that my 812 came with. My tender is in a sealed Ferrari branded case so I can’t see the tender unit itself.

    The meter on my neighbor’s charging point shows that the F12’s tender draws an average of 0.008 kW h. The meter on my charging point shows that the 812’s tender draws an average of 0.076 kW h. Just under 10x more than the F12. Curious. Different tender? Different battery?
     
  16. Chizz

    Chizz Formula Junior
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 21, 2017
    995
    Atlanta
    Nicely written
     
  17. R J

    R J Formula Junior

    May 17, 2017
    583
    UK
    What constitutes incorrect use and risks damage to battery?
     
  18. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    Sorry, I've been busy with my projects. Yes, I have not considered Li batteries but I can think of 4 reasons that are at the back of my mind:

    1) my AGM battery works fine and the car was designed to use it, so changing it may introduce car issues that I am not aware of.

    2) the Li batteries need to be the same physical size to provide a secure installation (prevent vibrations) and they will also be lighter. Lighter is usually a good thing but you also have to think about effects on the balance of the car. A lighter front end may affect the handling characteristics. At the moment, I am actually tweaking the car's handling while trying not to lighten the front so I would prefer not to complicate matters with a lighter battery.

    3) I understand Li batteries do not like heat and my Cali30's battery sits right in front of the engine. While it gets good cooling from the front grill when the car's on the go, I don't know how hot it gets in there on average but I use an advanced Midtronics battery tester and in all my test data, the battery temperatures recorded were well above the recommended temp range for Li batteries and we're already quite a bit cooler here in Ontario, Canada than it is in the US. IMO, Li batteries are good when used on a very light car or if the car came with an Li battery. My 675LTS comes with a Li battery, but I have never even looked at it.

    4) Li batteries are still quite expensive and relatively new, not so easy to service if I run into a problem.
    This is not to say you won't be happy with a Li battery upgrade. Let us know how you make out with this idea.
     
  19. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    Alright, you do have what looks like a significant difference in current draw and IMO an average draw of 0.76 KwH from your 812 seems a bit high. Your electrical bill adds up quickly if you draw this much power on average and the tender is always running. My experience with my CTEK 7002 on my Cali30 is more like your friend's, with his F12. I think I also checked the CTEK Li tender for my LT and was not concerned about its draw; but I can't recall the actual reading I got. At any rate, I don't have a choice with my LT's battery as it's an expensive replacement if I screw it up.

    You mention looking at the variables: the batteries, the tenders, assuming all else except the cars being the same.

    Well, the batteries should be easy to check so just have a look. However, I don't think different makes of batteries will cause such a difference and I am assuming the batteries are very similar. As for the tenders, you should be able to run them on either cars. I do not believe the 812 requires a special charger but given my ignorance on the matter, you should examine your 812's charger and look up the user's manual for the specs.

    The cars are different though and the battery terminal on modern Ferraris include a special circuit for powering electrical components that need to be powered even when the ignition is off. This draw is significant enough that it does completely throw off test readings from even sophisticated battery testers that do not account for the Ferrari design - I have personally seen this happen. So it is possible the 812 requires an extra draw.

    The other possible source of difference in readings is the accuracy of the meters on your charging circuits and you can test that with an amp meter. I actually use one at home and I test every heavily used electrical device with it. Use the meter to test both yours and your neighbour's charging setup to verify the KwH readings you have.

    I would be interested to know if you learn more about this discrepancy. Meanwhile, I think I posted my charger's current draw on FChat before and I'll see if I can look it up or test it again. It does take some minutes for the charger to reach the maintenance mode though.
     
    R J likes this.
  20. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    The usual risk is what most people call "overcharging" which in our case, refers to overheating caused by applying too high a voltage for the ambient temperatures. This can damage and shorten the life of the battery. I believe it's mainly due to the extra heat causing the battery fluids to unnecessarily evaporate. Lead-acid batteries, even AGM batteries all need to vent, when gases build up.

    The high-end chargers have a RECOND(ition) mode which when incorrectly used, can cause the above. You should only use the recondition mode when it's indicated, not willy-nilly.

    In the "old days", people would buy the chargers that produced the quickest recharge, often with very bad results, because they can quickly overheat and ruin batteries. You have to really know batteries and exactly what the charger is doing. They were (very) dumb chargers. The new CTEK chargers are smart and can detect battery condition, then adjust the rates of charge. However, when you use RECOND, the understanding is that the battery is not in a normal state and thus the smart charger no longer charges it "carefully". It assumes you want to force a heavy charge on the battery so things can go wrong if the battery does not need the heavy charge.
     
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  21. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    OK, I was curious and had a few extra minutes last night. I sampled the current draw from the CTEK 7002 charger (7A max) on my Cali30 and the CTEK Model 1062 Li charger (7A max) on my 675LTS. Here are the results:

    Cali30 - 0.0154 kWh
    675LTS - 0.0044 kWh

    vs.

    F12 - 0.008 kWh
    812 - 0.076 kWh​

    So my tests, which are not exactly scientific (no adjustment for temperature, time of measurement, charger differences, battery health,...etc.) did produce results much closer to the F12's. So the 812 reading would seem unexpectedly high.

    I would suggest checking the current draw on the 812 charging port periodically to see if your initial reading was truly representative or comparable because as you see below, my 675LTS took about an hour to drop back into maintenance mode even though the battery was already fully-charged. At 5 minutes, it was actually drawing 0.0341 kWh when the Cali was only drawing 0.0154 kWh.

    ACTUAL OBSERVATIONS (meter readings are Amps at 110VAC)
    =====================
    The Cali30 battery was already full before testing and within 5 minutes, the CTEK 7002 had resumed maintenance mode charging at 0.14A @ 110VAC. This translates to 0.07A @ 220VAC equivalent to compare with R J's experience on 220VAC UK power.

    This translates to 0.0154 kWh.


    The 675LTS battery was also already fully charged before testing but it took a lot longer for the charger to achieve a low, stable current draw. After 5 minutes, the CTEK1062 was still drawing a high current (0.31A) and I had to wait 30 minutes before that draw dropped to 0.04A @ 110VAC. This translates to 0.02A @ 220VAC UK power equivalent.

    This translates to 0.0044 kWh. FWIW, it took another 30 minutes or so before the charger indicated it achieved a maintenance mode.

     
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  22. XSpeed

    XSpeed Formula Junior

    Jan 6, 2019
    408
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    SX
    Had to call the Ferrari assistance because battery didn't start the car. I'm seriously considering getting a lithium battery now.

    I hate it that if I don't use the car often, I can't start it anymore. So I need a battery which can last much longer than the factory one.

    Another issue I have is not having any idea about the current state of the battery quickly. E.g. the reason I couldn't start the car this time is most likely using carplay with a charging iphone. I think that drains most of the energy of the battery.

    So I can get a Braille or the Liteblox. The Liteblox has an app which I can connect to the battery and check quickly.

    I don't know if Braille i49CS has it, too.

    For the Lithium batteries, many mention they are lighter. Is this something to be concerned about reducing the weight on the front? I don't want the car to take off while going 320kmh.
     
  23. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    A.B
    From a quality standpoint, the Braille is about as good as it gets. It does however, not have an app or any additional features. If you want a battery with built in features like boost etc. look into the Antigravity batteries. https://www.antigravitybatteries-uk.co.uk/automotive-and-supercars/antigravity-h8group-49-car-battery.html
    Remember to get the lithium charger if going the lithium route.

    Are you making a joke about the car taking off due to the weight loss, or are you serious? In a car as heavy as yours, I'd be surprised if you can even tell you saved the weight.

    If you decide on not going the lithium route, look into the Varta Silver Dynamic range of batteries.
     
  24. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
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    A.B
    Using the battery as a boat anchor or as a power source for your electric tooth brush will do I suppose. Using it as a jack stand perhaps? I don't usually get this kind of thing. It's like the warnings telling you not to put your cat in the tumble dryer or making sure your kids don't lick the burners no the stove...

    As for the F12 vs. 812 battery size. Yes they are different. The 812 switched to a Group 48 style battery like used in the 458, 488 and F8. The F12 uses a Group 49 like in the Lusso, Cali/Porto, and FF.
     
  25. XSpeed

    XSpeed Formula Junior

    Jan 6, 2019
    408
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    SX
    That's what I was looking for. Thanks a lot! Let's see if the dealer offers it.

    > Antigravity Batteries has changed the game again with our latest Lithium-Ion Car Batteries. The newest RE-START line of batteries offers built-in WIRELESS Jump-Starting! That means if your battery is ever discharged, simply press the Button on our provided Keyfob, start the car and drive away!
     

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