F12 tdf market price thread | Page 22 | FerrariChat

F12 tdf market price thread

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Ferrari 308 Vetro, Nov 9, 2015.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    If you asked the question to get people's view here on appreciation, you can see it is quite varied. One thing I tend to see around price related threads here and other forums is that when owners reply saying who cares about price/ I will keep the car forever etc, it usually means prices are on the way down :)

    Assuming you are looking to buy to drive rather than just for investment, then worth doing a search on the driving experience. To say that opinions about the car's dynamics are sharply divided would be putting it diplomatically.

    Also worth remembering that these cars are very sensitive to mileage. As you have seen yourself, there are so many with delivery miles, any additional mileage has an impact. Good news if you actually want to drive it, since you can find a cheaper car with some miles. Good luck
     
  2. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    774
    The biggest unknown factor for the TDF future value (besides general macro trends such as economy), is the special version of the 812. If the 812 TDF ends up simply being an F12 TDF but better, then it's highly likely that future collectors will view the 812 TDF as the ultimate and most desirable version of the F12 platform.

    A good parallel example would be the desirability of a 997.1 GT3 vs a 997.2 GT3. The 997.2 was similar the .1, but superior. Comparing the two, there is nothing uniquely desirable about a 997.1 over a 997.2.

    Now if the 812 TDF goes in some totally different direction that makes the F12 TDF unique, then there is the possibility of the F12 TDF holding better desirability in the long run.

    Regardless, this discussion has little impact on you as a buyer unless you're planning on holding onto the car for 10 years. As of now, it's a depreciating car. And even if it does appreciate, you have to maintain collector miles.
     
    paulchua and Makuono like this.
  3. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    You're wrong. It means we don't care what the car's "market value" is because the car delivers enough intrinsic value to us that we NEVER intend to sell, whether value goes UP, or goes DOWN. (... But only a truly passionate Ferrari connoisseur would understand this...)

    You're wrong. This would only be true if you were foolish enough to believe what click-baiting Youtube posters (and posers) say as an attempt to harness web traffic. There are numerous examples of highly qualified drivers who love the car, including Cort Wagner:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/tdf-exactly-as-crazy-as-it-should-be.542768/

    https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/cort-wagner/

    https://www.speedsport-magazine.com/race-driver-database/biography/cort-wagner_-_1118.html

    That's like saying a 275 GTB's greatness is dependent on how great (or not) the 365 GTB/4 is/was. Assuming a LE/VS 812 actually gets built (still questionable), the F12 Tdf will stand independently. It is, and forever will be, derived from beautiful Pininfarina design - the 812 is not. The F12 Tdf has a real key, no HELE, no GPF, no e-nannies that will be EU mandated if/when LE/VS 812 enters production. Net, F12 Tdf will stand independent of (possible) LE/VS 812.

    Tastefully spec'd 2-3 year old Tdf's with MSRP's of 550-600k currently sell for around 1M... You call that depreciating??
     
  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,755
    i think prices will be stable for a longtime around 900, so a 600k sticker car will be 1.5x sticker...from a relative value perspective i think tdf and cgt shld trade around the same spot. speciale and gto are around msrp. CS are sticker plus. Scuds little less. apertas are sticker plus. will be interesting to see of pista stays at sticker. id buy a high mile one and drive it. i didnt love the looks enough to keep one as a garage queen.
     
    Caeruleus11 and of2worlds like this.
  5. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
    16,445
    ON
    Full Name:
    CH
    yes but you got silver; not F1 2007 Quad Strato red that looks like candy! ;)
     
    Caeruleus11 likes this.
  6. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    6,299
    Full Name:
    Ron
    I've got both. I drive both. I LOVE the look of the GTO - hence why I bought the one I own - but the F12tdf is a whole different beast. I could go on and on as to why, but driving the Tdf is the absolute most fun I have had in any Ferrari I've ever owned. From my perspective the premium will always go to the Tdf and not the rarer GTO.
     
    Avia11, rp456, Bundy and 9 others like this.
  7. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    One who owns only for future value but not drive them has no idea what tdf means to FR v12 greatness.
    Not driving tdf should be a crime lol.

    The only car I respect and which requires different mindset when driving.
    Even 1 M feels cheap when considering what this car delivers to driver.


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
    Caeruleus11, 4_Eff_Sake and Eilig like this.
  8. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,557
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    At Mobile.De there are 13 F12 TDF's for sale and the prices asked oscillate between 789,000 Euros and around 1 Million Euros being the average price asked around 860.000 Euros. I look at these prices on a regular basis and during 2019 the prices asked and the number o cars for sale appear to have stabilized. Because I've seen the same adverts at Mobile.De for quite sometime, I wonder if any transaction occurred this year.

    PS- For the ones interested in trying a TDF there is a company that hires one in London for £ 1100 a day. If you can't cope with driving on the left side of the road or find the TDF too wild, this company offers the option of a chauffeur :)
     
    Caeruleus11 and LVP488 like this.
  9. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    I feel same.
     
  10. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2008
    8,539
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Edward
    I hear this a lot, that the TDF delivers a very raw, visceral performance.... would like to hear its comparisons to CGT.


    Sent from my 16M
     
    Caeruleus11 likes this.
  11. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    6,299
    Full Name:
    Ron
    This will go back to why I prefer it over the GTO but having never driven a CGT, my story might fall short.

    The GTO is absolute crap when driven slow and shifted at low RPMs. It jerks and pauses and lurches about. My wife absolutely hates riding in the car because of the pauses in the single plate clutch. HOWEVER when the car is driven hard - in fact it begs to be driven hard - it comes alive. It's a Dr Jekyll / Mr. Hyde kinda car. When pushed hard it's great. But it needs to be pushed to the absolute limit to be enjoyed. The transmission bangs the gears up and down when shifted and does it with a big fast thump. The Scuderia gearbox is similar but has even more drama as it's like a kick in your back. The engine is ok but it's true personality comes from shifting.

    The Tdf is all about the engine. Shifting is a nonevent as it's so fast and smooth and happens so fast there is no time to think about it. The engine is magical and one of a kind. The GTO, Speciale, Pista, Lusso, 488, FF, 612 - all of which I have recently owned/own don't compare in the slightest. Here too is a car when short shifted is tame/calm/quiet. Shift the Tdf at 4k-5k, it too is a nonevent (like the GTO) but when pushed, the engine comes alive. No, the whole car comes alive. One need only watch the Chris Harris review to see first hand. When pushed, the car's electronics struggle to keep traction and grip even though I swear I actually burn a little rubber shifting up through the gears. The car wiggles about under full throttle and feels like it's on the edge of losing it. The engine has a very unique growl and sound both mechanical and exhaust all coupled with this awesome feel of g-force pushing you back into the seat.
     
    dickus25, rp456, Nelsonc275 and 7 others like this.
  12. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 31, 2001
    3,493
    Full Name:
    Cavallo
    So true Ron... I remember one time upshifting at roughly 100 mph and the rear kicked out, almost certainly as a result of breaking them loose... Every drive is an exciting adventure.

    Outstanding write-up... !!!

    Having never driven a CGT either, all I can surmise is that perhaps the biggest similarity between the two cars is that both demand respect, else you'll get hurt. :)
     
    Bundy, 4_Eff_Sake and Caeruleus11 like this.
  13. Luk77

    Luk77 Rookie

    May 6, 2018
    26
    I drove a CGT and a F12, never driven a TDF... however the 2 cars are not comparable at all! Front engine against middle engine... Aluminum chassis against carbon fiber chassis... Automatic gearbox against manual gearbox...

    I believe as well 812 special series will be like RS 997.2 Vs 997.1.

    Considering same value (and now TDF as an higher value) I will always choose a CGT... we are talking about a tuned F12 against an hyper car! I understand if CGT is not popular on Ferrarichat...
     
    plastique999 likes this.
  14. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,755
    when i drove my CGT i felt like i was in an exotic...didnt feel that way in the tdf. cgt with original tires was frightening. the new michelins they made for it helped enormously. Hard cars to compare since one is front engine but having owned both i do think they shld trade around the same dollars.
     
    Boomhauer, of2worlds and plastique999 like this.
  15. Red Sled

    Red Sled Formula Junior

    The timing of the question is fortuitous as I had both of the cars on track this afternoon in Italy. Based on my experience (approximately 20k on CGT and 4k on tdf, split between track and mountains), I would suggest that the driving characteristics are quite different beyond the initial sense of rawness.

    The CGT is really two different cars depending on whether the tyres have been upgraded from the original Michelin PS2 to SS released a few years ago by Porsche. Prior to that, I had a car whose sensitive on-limit handling required circumspection on the road and plenty of run-off on track. Exciting for sure but very difficult to run consistently at the limit. Post upgrade, it shares many of the driving dynamics with the F50 which make them among the best manual supercars made: taut chassis response, flat cornering, rich steering feel, and amazing engines. The F50 edges ahead due its lightweight go-kart style response through corners, and and and even better engine even though the CGT brakes are a testament to the massive improvement from ceramics in the approx 10 years between the cars. Without the electronic nannies (PSM - Porsche stability management) on the CGT displays typical mid-engined handling: neutral to mild understeer on the way in, adjustable on throttle mid-corner and snaps into oversteer beyond the limit which requires quick, accurate correction.

    The tdf behaves quite differently in that the turn-in is immense for a large front engined car, and you can delightfully oversteer around the entire corner if you get the balance on its knife edge, but the inputs need to be correctly metered and precisely fed in. Unlike the CGT/F50 mid- corner throttle corrections can easily induce more oversteer. I am still very much at the start of the learning curve, but it is an amazing journey, and fundamentally very different to anything I have owned including the earlier F12 and the later 812.

    The need for electronic handling aids is perhaps the biggest similarity between the tdf and CGT - both appear to be designed to be driven with them on, at least on the road. The static stability is relaxed by design to allow super sharp response but the aids keep it within limits. I have just about graduated to CT-off on mountain roads but ESC-off is a step too far.

    I have seen comments about the unpredictable handling on both cars. I prefer a sharper knife and learn to use it correctly (and mind my fingers!)

    I agree with the post above that the tdf will stand independently to the other V12 limited editions. The answer lies, at least in my mind, in its sheer force of personality which is much more than the sum of its parts. Given the seismic changes underway in regulations and the market, I doubt we will see its kind again.

    Not sure how any of this helps the OP, so apologies if off topic.
     
  16. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    10,858
    Thank you, absolutely fantastic post! :)
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  17. nads

    nads Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2008
    875
    London, UK
    Ron....suggest you get the car checked out, I have not experienced any significant jerks and/or pauses. In fact at low rpm's if you stick it in auto I find it drives relatively smoothly and when pushed hard the noise alone is worth the price of entry :eek::cool:
     
  18. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 28, 2004
    6,299
    Full Name:
    Ron
    I will. I did buy a car that had been sitting for years and years. 300 miles total when I bought it.
     
  19. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2008
    8,539
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Edward
    Fantastic information!
    If you had to choose one, which would you?
    I don’t think I could trade my CGT for a TDF. I would absolutely love a TDF for it’s special attributes. But a high price of entry.


    Sent from my 16M
     
    mclaren slr and of2worlds like this.
  20. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    I have been an owner for 37 years,
    during which I have bought/sold/raced/slept-in plenty of Ferraris, so please spare me the lecture about connoisseurs.


    Hardly. There are well respected owners who have posted here, e.g:

    I can understand that some owners wouldn't want to hear a bad word about their favourite toy, but an open and moderately enquiring mind might find that opinions on the tdf's driveability IS sharply split as I said.
     
    Data and Boomhauer like this.
  21. Katonk

    Katonk Rookie

    Jun 4, 2016
    12
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Jason
    Let's see what happens to TDF prices when all fcars need to comply with EU noise limits or the dreaded gas particulate filter(GPF). TDF will be the last of the best sounding fcars. Imagine a TDF that sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
     
    of2worlds and Bundy like this.
  22. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
    2,374
    Arizona & Kentucky
    Full Name:
    Anir
    Agreed. Not to mention, the horror show of new Ferrari acronyms like ADAS, HELE, AEB, etc. In the long run, tdf prices have nowhere to go but up IMHO.
     
    of2worlds and Katonk like this.
  23. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    This. There are so many "special" cars with high prices hitting the market. How many can the market really swallow? Every brand is pumping out limited, pricey models.

    IMO the supercar market has peaked and is oversaturated. Back in the late 2000s and early 2010s, the market was fire but nowadays people lose interest in new models really quick since they are being pumped out by so many brands in so many forms.
     
    LARRYH likes this.
  24. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2008
    4,612
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Why will NA be more special than NA + hybrid in the 812 replacement? Hybrid detracts from nothing. It's still has 100% of the best NA characteristics and removes the worst ones. Same sound, but better response and torque, with some slight EV benefits like quiet start, battery only driving, etc.
     
    DGPF likes this.
  25. MDEL

    MDEL F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2016
    3,557
    Southern Europe
    Full Name:
    Mario
    The two seats front engine V12 GT Supercar is part of Ferrari DNA and through decades, model after model, has had an absolute domination making all the competitor’s cars a shadow of the Ferraris. The TDF is the supreme exponent of a Ferrari V12 GT powered just by a combustion engine therefore, and soon, when all Ferraris will be hybrid, it will be even more special and more desirable than what it is now. In less than one decade the TDF will be regarded more and more as an icon from an era in which it was the last and the greatest road V12 GT non hybrid built by Ferrari.
     
    Roland1688 likes this.

Share This Page