F12 tdf market price thread | Page 24 | FerrariChat

F12 tdf market price thread

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Ferrari 308 Vetro, Nov 9, 2015.

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  1. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    SF90 battery only range = 16 miles, average track session is 25-30 minutes and, for instance, COTA length is 3.4 miles, in 25-30 minutes you can usually cover 10+ laps, that's 34 miles or more, battery = tiny (7.9 kWh lithium-ion), by comparison, Tesla Model 3 smallest battery is 50 kWh, ranging up to 75 kWh, SF90 battery is tiny and will quickly be overwhelmed at a track event or anywhere you can push the car beyond the limits of the battery pack...speed wise or duration wise, then you are carrying a lot of extra useless weight vis a vis the Pista...

    I'm not sure why LaF, 918, P1 are included, my original reply was singular to noone1 replying that EV will compensate for the extra weight, none of those 3 are particularly heavy cars, the SF90 will be heavier, remember, the LaF does not have electric motors driving the wheels, and the LaF is a KERS system, not intended for "emissions compliance" as the SF90 is intended, the LaF electric drive is intended for bursts of power, not sustained, yes its battery is smaller but completely different intention...
     
  2. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    Tesla has no internal combustion engine, and no one expects to run very many SF90 track sessions on electric only!

    I'll bet you never run out of juice in 10 laps at COTA, providing you don't run out of gas first. Remember, the electric batteries and motors are there to augment the ICE in hybrid/KERS cars, not replace it. Even if you do run low on juice after a few laps ... take a cool-down "recharge" lap, and then enjoy a few more hot laps with ~1000hp (combined)! Sounds like a fun day to me ...
    I mentioned LaF and 918 only to point out that the electric storage in SF90 is greater than these other hybrid/KERS cars ... meaning, the SF90 battery is far from "tiny" in comparison to other hybrid/KERS performance cars.
     
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  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    My point is, 16 miles range "driving normally" = 4 miles or less driving as hard as you can, that's a ratio I came up with, no reference, but, the fact is, pushed hard, the SF90 battery will give out long before 16 miles (using that as a reference point, as your track day would be rather bland in electric only in the SF90 as it is limited to 84mph in that situation).

    Ah, but the SF90 is not a KERS system (i.e. meant only for performance boosts), the SF90 is intentionally made for emissions compliance, totally different purpose. As such, I do not see how a direct comparison can be drawn to any KERS system (for instance, Lamborghini Sian is a "kers" like system, intended for only for performance, nothing to do with emissions compliance).

    And the SF90 will never have a single "hot lap" at 1000hp on a track such as COTA where speeds can regularly (i.e. at some point on each lap) because the under powered YASA motors turn off at 130mph (it's beyond my comprehension why Ferrari would choose such a solution, for instance, the electric motors used by Rimac are good for 227mph...)

    So, regardless of remaining battery charge, it'll never happen (i.e. hot lap ever), pity. I do wonder what it will "feel like" at 130mph when the electric motors stop functioning, will probably feel like you "hit a wall" proverbially speaking. And I wonder if they immediately 'turn back on' under 130mph or if they wait a certain amount of time or until under some preset speed such as 110mph, that I have no idea about.
     
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  4. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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  5. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
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    The point you may be missing, is that the batteries are regularly being re-charged while you're pushing hard during a hot lap. It's not an all-or-nothing scenario ... batteries depleted after 4 miles, then you're dead in the water (or stuck carrying dead weight, that can contribute no more). It's not like that, at all.

    My most recent reference point is the new Acura NSX ... batteries constantly being recharged every time you break, of course, but also during any opportunity when the ICE motor can over-rev. It's literally amazing how fast the NSX can re-charge it's batteries during VERY "spirited" driving.

    As i wrote ... push the car hard for as many laps as the batteries will allow, understanding that you aren't just depleting but also re-charging, then cool-down and re-charge completely for a lap or two :) ready to push again, until the gas runs out! Not a bad way to spend an afternoon.
     
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  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    So, I like to move this thread along..

    new idea

    Which would be better, having just an F12TDF or having a 458Speciale+812

    F12TDF, best private sale price might be low 800s (undamaged vehicle) based on recent auctions. And, low mile 458S + low mile MY2019 812 (350 + 420) is nearly the same money, but two cars, and the 812 has "version 2" rear steer and other improvements (more HP, etc) as compared to the TDF...

    So, which would be the better choice, F12TDF or 458S+812?

    For a fun comparison of F12TDF vs 812:



    thoughts?
     
  7. j09333

    j09333 Formula 3

    May 7, 2004
    1,142
    Tdf
     
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  8. dustman

    dustman F1 Veteran
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    Jun 12, 2007
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    Tdf
     
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  9. Katonk

    Katonk Rookie

    Jun 4, 2016
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    I've had all 3. I still will pick the tdf. It's insane. As for prices, some are still selling in the low ones. Auction prices don't mean everything.
     
  10. 4_Eff_Sake

    4_Eff_Sake Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2016
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  11. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
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    Well you are talking about 2 different things. As far as weight alone, it makes a huge difference in handling. I have owned a regular Murcie and upgraded to my MurcieSV and the decrease in weight is very noticeable in canyon turns. Similarly, I went from a 430 spider to the 16M and the lighter weight again definitely sharpens the directness of steering.
    To your second point, sales, yes most won’t care about weight vs power. But Lotus is my favorite brand and for spirited drivers who appreciate the weight reduction, it is absolutely an important benefit!

    As far as getting the thread back on track, I would Love a TDF and would appreciate the nuances including lighter weight and uprated mods. Wish I could afford it!

    Sent from my 16M
     
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  12. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    722
    To me a TDF is worth MSRP - no more. The market now is somewhere north of that - exactly where depends on spec and miles.

    I'm not a collector but a driver. A TDF in my hands would accumulate miles and hence shed value, hence my unwillingness to pay over MSRP. For driving a regular F12 is more my comfort zone (yes I realize it drives different).

    For a collector who never drives the car and wants to look at it 10 - 20 years or more - maybe the parameters change. The big prices are only for cars with very little to no miles.

    Haven't seen a 10K or 20K mile TDF for sale so not sure if such an example would fetch a premium.

    I don't see a modern TDF as a collectible in the same vein as an Enzo era car so the collector status thing does not apply IMO. Besides by then I may be dead so why should I care?

    We'll see....
     
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  13. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

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    A very good point. There are so many delivery mile tdfs out there that the first miles are expensive. It's just the state of the market as a result of the bubble over the last few years, and the past has been no different.

    Back in 1994 I bought an F40 which has spent its previous 3 years collecting dust/value during the 90's bubble. Not a single mile after delivery. Even had all the plastic interior wrappers. By then the bubble had collapsed and you could get them for less than list price, a long way from the 5 x list they were selling during 1990.

    So I drove my 100k euro "investment" nearly 20,000 km in the next 3 years. Who would do that now with a delivery mile tdf?

    When this current bubble is over, I think you'll see a few more on the roads, which is where they should be. And people will value car more based on what it is worth to them personally based on the enjoyment they get from it.
     
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  14. spyder625

    spyder625 Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2017
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    a TDF with 20K miles, is that worth buying if the price is right? i know mostly preference but just asking for some others to comment...
     
  15. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    of course - why wldnt it be?
     
  16. plastique999

    plastique999 F1 Veteran
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    Yes,...what would market price be on this?
    (My 16M has 19k miles)


    Sent from my 16M
     
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  17. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    If you know of one, please tell me where it is and I'll buy it.
     
  18. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    600?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. unotaz

    unotaz Formula Junior

    Jun 4, 2006
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    Michael
    MSRP

     
  20. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    I doubt there are any 20k mile tdfs, let alone for sale. They'd sell instantly if there were since they are sought after by long term holders and the discount for 20k miles would be pretty significant so early on.

    20k miles wont affect price much 10 years from now, but it will currently.
     
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  21. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Thats not right. F40s are 30 yrs old and miles matter. No collector is buying a 20k mile tdf. A driver will buy it.


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  22. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    After you surpass delivery miles and sit in the thing, it doesn't matter as time goes on. Some of the most valuable cars in the world aren't even original, let alone low mileage. In the long run, the spec is what will matter most.

    The mileage on a F40 matters more probably because there is practically nothing whatsoever to differentiate the cars. It's also not *that* old. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure 95% of the cars are all the exact same. I can't even think of the last time I saw an F40 for sale that wasn't just the typical red/black/red.
     
  23. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Sorry but thats not how it works. Virtually every ferrari born on the north side of 1980 is mile sensitive.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  24. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 World Champ
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    I'm pretty sure all the F40s were made as red/red. So, of course the ones on the market are such.
     
  25. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    #600 noone1, Sep 14, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
    And that range will likely continue to adjust as the cars get older and older. If you're buying a car to keep forever, the cost of freshening it up 30K miles later will be insignificant compared to the value of the car and values should likely all begin to move to the same point. It's like an Enzo with 8K miles or 28K miles. The cars can be made identical in condition for a meaningless amount relative to the value. They aren't going to have a 50% difference in value. The delivery mile car might, but not one that well into the miles. The difference in price will come down to the spec and more likely the cost of making the cars equals in restoration.

    Heck, one of the most valuable F40s in the world is probably that crazy one the guy on here practically rebuilt from the ground up into an LM version. Nicest F40 on the planet.

    Was Ferrari really making that many "limited" and "SE" models in the 80s and 90s?
     
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