F12 tdf market price thread

AGREED.

 

You're exactly correct that spec makes a tremendous difference in Tdf resale values. With the vast majority of Tdf's still having delivery miles, the reason why some sell in private transactions and never make it to market, whereas others not only make it to market but end up wallowing on market for upwards of 1 year+..... all comes down to build spec.

So yes, absolutely, whereas the key differentiator in F40 resale comes down to miles (as there is not much variance in build specs), the current key differentiator in Tdf resale currently comes down to build spec -- subject to change, of course, as EVENTUALLY Tdfs will/should begin to accumulate miles.

 

this is laughable. in 2o and 30 yrs there will be 2 groups of TDF as there is now. there will be nicely specced tasteful cars and there will be the crazy rainbow brite tailor made ones. The nicely specced group will be worth more than the latter. of the nicely specced ones, the low miles ones will trade for much more than the higher miles ones. that is a fact.

 

From an investment perspective or if one was limited to a single car, then TdF.

The 812 driving experience may be less raw than the TdF, but still a true banshee of a car and for all intents and purposes, provides a similar powertain experience (which is the main reason for buying a V12 anyhow). My vote is 812 + Speciale.

 

But the premium for low miles will be much much less as a percentage of value.

So there are two Enzos at Ferrari dealers for sale right now that I see with a quick search.

2500 miles red/black/red, 5300 miles yellow/black/yellow. Asking 3.2M vs 3.1M. They're only *asking* of course, and while yellow is rarer, red is the standard for these kinds of cars and likely should carry the spec premium.

More than double the miles, but only 3% difference in price. Would 20K miles have a lower price? Totally, but it's not going to be 30% ($1M gap) like you see on more modern cars.

Obviously it's hard to draw concrete conclusions with so few data points, but it is what it is.

As time goes on, miles become a less meaningful metric for the quality of a car. A 40 year old car likely needs just as much work whether it has 2000 miles or 22000 miles, and the cost to bring them to the same condition becomes insignifcant.

 

yes actually. the enzo with the 20k miles cld ver well go for 20 to 30 percent less than the other car. and btw enzos are nowhere near 3M anymore as it is. the 2500 mile car will go for mid 2s and the 20k mile car will go for 1.7...that's a real difference.

 

I'd need to see it to believe it. I don't think there is an $800K difference between the cars given what you could accomplish in terms of restoration with $800K.

In Europe, assuming the offers are real, I see two Enzos for sale. One is from Singen, so that one almost certainly is real. The other looks legit as well.

1.9M Euro with 20K miles, 2.25M Euro with 6K miles. Both are Red/Black. They are asking prices, not selling prices obviously, but the asking prices for similar cars seem consistent.

So $350K difference for 15K miles. That difference will only shrink as times goes on so long as the visual condition of the cars is roughly the same. Miles have no meaning over very long periods of time aside from maintenance costs, and over long periods of time lots of stuff needs replacing anyway.

 

Whatever makes u happy

 

A 3 year old Tdf currently has 2k miles. In today's market, it is "high mile" car.
Let's say in 20 years it has 5k miles. In that market, it will be "low mile" car.

Everything is relative. Spec is relative to taste. Miles are relative to age.

 

OP and spyder625 - if you buy a car please let us know miles and where the price falls relative to its msrp.

 

In my view the F12tdf is a fantastic car - one of the very greats.

It was marketed as a ''Limited Series'' but that's been effectively replaced by the ''Icona'' series, with a very different price point. Leaving ''Limited Runs'' to sit below Icona.

If I'm correct, the tdf is effectively last of the pre-Icona LE era. And that might mean the tdf could just end up representing strong value for money even at current secondary prices (the 599 GTO perhaps even more so).

IMO, the 2010 - 2015 period, which comprised a few Limited Series ''gems'' (including the tdf), was an moment in time that's unlikely to be repeated. You absolutely can't blame Ferrari for evolving its marketing strategy to optimize margin, just look at VWG's remarkable ability to generate juicy margin by optimizing its brands around its platforms. Auto makers are facing a perfect storm in terms of change, the brands that matter know what's required.

But I think all this could make the tdf look like a relative bargain.

 

In some ways, Tdf feels like Icona car at LE price point.

(with sculpting inspiration from 275 GTB, one of the all-time greats)

 

I’d like to pick up a low spec TDF and put on those miles on the car!
I don’t know about others, but on my race version cars, I don’t need a lot of options ... (CF is nice but can be added later). I don’t need delivery miles either.
I bought my 16M with 10k miles (now 19k miles), bought my Speciale recently with 4K miles, bought my CGT with 4K miles (now 9k miles).
Someone please drive theirs and then sell to me to continue driving them - that’s what they are meant for!



Sent from my 16M

 

Not really. In keeping with the historical Ferrari philosophy, the tdf moved the game forwards (rear-wheel steer, substantially improved engine with more power, light weight materials etc) but the Icona (or Monza SP so far) is a rear view mirror exercise that is an 812 with a new skin. Whether the Icona series represents peak-of the-market thinking or is more enduring remains to be seen.

 

ICONA (Italian noun): "an object of uncritical devotion; a person or thing regarded as a representative symbol or as worthy of veneration."

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TDF is so stunning.

 

In a debate on current valuations and future valuations, my money is on the guy that owns 30+ cars over the guy that owns noone.

 

noone, how many ferraris have you bought and sold?

 

Zero, but what does that have to do with it? Auction results are public and you can always see what's for sale at most for asking prices.

I just don't see any indication that the price gaps are as wide as you say in the long term. With Classiche, you can one exactly how much it costs to bring any part of a car back to zero miles.

So if you say $800k Gap for 5k vs 20k for example on an Enzo, then that reasons it would cost roughly $800k for Ferrari to refresh the car, which seems very very far fetched. Plus you're going to keep whatever parts you replace, so you're talking potentially hundreds of thousands in spare, original parts.

So yea, I don't think you're going to see massive gaps in pricing long term.

 

You have absolutely no perspective on values until you have hunted, due diligenced, evaluated, and negotiated, and written a check with your own hard earned dollars. Unless you have actually done it you have no idea what these things trade like, what buyers are like. Ive done over 50 transactions in the past 20 yrs and i still learn new stuff.


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You talk like a finance professor valuing securities "logically" whereas @ttforcefed is the trader buying and selling them everyday.

 

And fwiw cars arent houses - it isn’t necessarily about what it costs to “bring it back”. Some of the highest price cars look like they’ve been through war. For anyone who hasn’t bought a car and reads your posts and places credence in them is grossly misinformed. You speak with conviction like you have experience and you dont.


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Well said! I’d listen to ur advices anytime of the day!


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So true. Every deal is different, and has a lot of unspoken, invisible dynamics at play -- ESPECIALLY EMOTION. Probably the most important thing I've learned over the years of buying/selling cars is: PATIENCE.

 

100 percent. Looking at auctions prices and asking prices and not knowing the real terms of deals is like playing basketball in a gym with the lights off. Yes there are 2 hoops and a ball but the lights are off.