F12 tdf market price thread

Trying to frame your argument by using 30-40 year periods is pretty out there. Let's be honest - there aren't a lot of these cars being bought by guys in their 30s and if you're tacking on 30-40 years to a 35yo, well, that's a long time and not reasonable to base an argument on.

Let's go back ~30 years and look at F40s - the difference between a driven example with, say, 25k miles (which still isn't a ton, when annualized) and a virgin car with <1,000 miles, could be anywhere for 70-100%, depending on mechanical & cosmetic condition as well as just how far under 1,000 miles that example is. And because we're talking about F40s, we eliminate a lot of other factors such as desirability of color, which will no doubt be a major factor in future values of TDFs.

If you want to go back 25 years and look at F50s, the book ends on mileage would again reflect a 70-100% difference in values. Add in other factors like color and the gap could widen even further (i.e. a 25k mile red car vs. a <1k mile black or yellow car).

If you want to get more "contemporary", we can look at Carrera GTs - this past August in Monterey, RM sold two 2005 Carrera GTs. One car was "normal-as-can-be" GT Silver with 5,200 miles, while the other was a one-of-a-kind PTS Orange car with 250 miles. Nearly everyone familiar with the Carrera GT market would tell you the 5,000 mile silver car was "well sold" at $720, yet even at that lofty price, the low mile orange car sold for a ~65% premium. If you instead compared a 10k mile Silver car that would be valued (maybe) at $600k, the premium paid for the orange car grows to almost 100%.

The price disparity between cars with low miles and cars with "driven" miles is amplified when the supply of low mile cars takes up an outsize proportion of the market, as seen in the most contemporary "collectibles" such as TDFs, 918s, LaFerraris, etc. All of a sudden 400 miles might seem like a lot... Not because it is, but because so many of the cars have still have delivery miles, so the discount applied to the "driven" car with 400 miles is magnified.

Miles on collector cars built post 1980 matter immensely. Full stop.

 

honestly sometimes i ask myself why i care - and the answer is some poor soul is actually going to scour and soak up a bunch of info that isn't close to being accurate. people commit dollars and use this as due diligence, and often its just totally off. understanding this market is more difficult than most other markets which i participate in. there is no MLS with historical transaction prices. 90 percent of all sales are private. so i just try to offer my experience over 20 years with a good breadth of cars and then im told "i dont believe you" lol...i mean come on.

 

thank you

 

the BEST thing anyone can do is befriend a wholesaler and pay them a couple grand to give you their values for 3 months and their flow. if you had only one lever to pull when buying a car access to a wholesaler's values will keep you safe. asking prices are for the blind.

 

I'm in my early 30s. Hardly any buying/selling experience and none with million dollar collectible cars.

That said... here are actual auction results for Enzos in various places and specs. These are sold prices with premium. There's no indication that super low vs what you'd consider to be "high" is creating such extreme price difference. With Enzos having much more variety in spec, the miles are obviously less important that all the other things associated with the car.

2018, 3600 miles, 2M GBP
2017, 17K miles, $2M
2017, 13K miles, 2.3M Euro
2017, 5K miles, 1.8M Euro
2017, 3700 miles, $2.7M
2014, 8K miles, $1.9M
2014, 2K miles, 950K GBP
2013, 600 miles, 1M Euro
2013, 9K mi, $1.3M

 

Congratulations - im done with this thread.if anyone else cares enough to show the economist how markets work please feel free!


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But who is talking about delivery mile cars you can't drive? That 250 mile orange car will lose $200K if you drive if off the auction block back to your house. Those cars are bought with the understanding that they more or less cannot be driven. Being that this is FerrariChat, the assumption was that anyone buying a car on here actually wants to drive it somewhat. When I said collector, I didn't mean a collector of art.

Buying a delivery mile car to store forever is the equivalent of buying a painting and keeping it in a dark room to sell later for more. That's not really what I had in mind.

 

Don't know what to tell you dude. Those we results from RM, Sotheby, Gooding, etc. If you don't think they are indicative of the market at any given time, so be it.

Your advice is welcome, and no one denies low miles cost more than high miles, but those are actual data points for a modern, rare Ferrari with various miles and specs sold at auction around the world. The Enzo is a multi-million dollar car that is generally easily importable/exportable. Good deals have no problems moving across oceans, and people who buy multi-million dollar Ferrari generally have no problem doing so, especially within Europe.

 

Some people need to learn the hard way

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I have more cars then there are days in the month. I’m pretty sure I win. In my early 30s I already had 20 cars so I think I win on that metric as well. And real cars.


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Nuff said.

 

And that's exactly what I said. The early year miles magnify the discount, thus that is the time to buy the highest mileage car you can since it will have the largest discount. This isn't true if your goal is literally to have a delivery mile car that you can't drive, but that was really never what I was talking about.

 

I was unaware of that. How many are limited edition, multi-million dollar Ferraris other than the F40?

 

160 of them


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Oh dear... where’s my “eating popcorn while I watch the drama unfold” gif?

@ttforcefed has/does own a serious amount of cars. You should listen to the voice of experience

 

It might be easier if you tried to describe an orgasm to a virgin - LOL

 

No doubt he does, so I'm just wondering how many are relevant to the price talk of the rare, 7 figure variety since that's where TDFs are near. I never claimed to have sold any, I just posted the auction results for a modern, 7-figure limited Ferrari.

 

Since you don’t seem to be prepared to take heed of his experience, what is the number that would sway you? Would it be enough to have sold just one at 7 figures? Or several? Or would a handful just below a million convince you?

I suspect you are not predisposed to entertaining the possibility you’re wrong. But you are.

There is no text book guide to buying high end cars, and emotion plays a large part in both the sellers and buyers motivations, as does the prevailing economic conditions at the time of sale and the number of units concurrently available in the market. These play as much, if not more, of a role in determining final prices than weight or miles.


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I have not figured @noone1 yet. He skates right up to the line of trolling (some would argue over it.) He recently mocked a person's Enzo here.

I mean the world is a bell curve I guess, for every cool person you meet, there is an...

• Of course, weight doesn't matter (asterisk) on the valuation of certain cars. That's a non-sequitur. You asked a straightforward question, why would somebody prefer a lighter car over a heavier one? (not valuation) - it surprised me as many here as it is a rhetorical retort.
• 30-40 years. Why stop there? Let's say 1,000 years!
• Miles, it's irrelevant for a TDFs? Twenty miles vs. Twenty thousand won't matter in 40 years? Then why does it matter to other Post 80's Ferrari? Time capsules get outsized premiums; you said you peruse auction quite a bit - it's not a secret. It doesn't take much digging to check this yourself.

 

First you argued that the discount between a 5k and a 20k mile Enzo wouldn't be $800k.

Then you provide auction data to that shows a 3700 mile and a 17k mile car that are $700k apart (let's not discount that the value lower priced car was buoyed by the fact that it was black, which is arguably the most highly valued Enzo color).

Then your last post literally has nothing to do with any thing you've posted up until this point, and seems like you're trying to twist your position to agree with everyone else here, all while avoiding any sort of admission that you might be just a teensy bit wrong.

 

i sold a tdf for 1M bucks and a cgt for 740. paid 600 for the tdf and 325k for the cgt. paid 82k for a 94 512tr. paid 100k for a 4k mile 89 anny countach. paid 140k for a 3k mile CS. paid 180 for a dino, paid 120k for a 7k mile 98 diablo sv, paid 21k for a 1997 toyota supra, paid 17K for a mint e30 m3. paid 13k for a 2k mile 1993 rx7. paid 45k for an 850 csi. paid $7,800 for a 93 cobra with 8k miles on it. paid $425 for a 91 f40 with 3k miles. have had 3 calis, 4 maseratis (qps and 1 MC stradale), 3 300zx tts, paid $120 for e36 M3 LTW...e55 AMG, 95 f355, FF, 612 oto, 2 458s, scud, paid 90k for a 2003 z3 with 1500 miles and sold it for 170k, 2 e36 M3s current, building an e30 m3, 1966 fiat 500, 2017, fiat 500 abarth, 2003 911tt...there are more but i cant remember all of them...

add almost a dozen SUVs, cars i have helped friends buy and sell, cars ive funded for trades for brokers who didnt have capital...id say i know a thing or 2 about the market...

im gonna go back to watching golf and critiquing tiger woods...

 

My god!!!


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Life would be pretty boring if everyone was uniformly smart, respectful, talented, etc. Wouldn’t Fchat be similarly boring if not for the occasional faux expert and interloper?

 

I’ve said it before....ttforcefed is a car guy god and my hero.

 

I forgot my 2 current 430 spiders and 456 mgta and previous 360 spider. 91 jetta gl, s4, e46 m3.


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