458 spider to F12/812 | FerrariChat

458 spider to F12/812

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Avia11, Sep 28, 2019.

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  1. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2017
    864
    San Diego, CA
    I was offered a really great deal for me to me to trade my 2015 458 spider for a 2017 F12. As with all things, when something sounds too good to be true it often is but I can't figure out the catch. Is there a reason to do this or not do this? I trust my F dealer and have a great relationship with them. The question is will the F12 values sink and the 458 values continue to rise? I spoke to my F dealer and they told me they can't keep enough 458s with good specs in stock. They have a waitlist for every 458 that is coming in. A part of me just wants to hang on to the 458 and pick up an F12 or 812 when the prices drop a bit more. Thanks for your opinions!
     
  2. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,839
    France
    Values of 458 rising should be a US thing, in Europe it's still on the way down (as is the F12).
    History is that V12 typically lose more value than the V8, but that's no guarantee for the future.
     
  3. PTG1

    PTG1 Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2017
    783
    UK
    Full Name:
    Pete
    In the UK very low mileage good spec 458 Spiders in red get sold very quickly indeed, they are on the market for less then a week, I think low mileage cars are not going to depreciate as people want them for the collection, they are a great car for pure driving pleasure and drama. I picked up a 1 owner sub 4k miles car and will keep it indefinitely and buy cars along side it, I think lots of guys are looking to do this, higher mileage cars are depreciating as more come on the market but they are still selling very well at F dealers, keep the 458 and add is my idea but, who really knows
    Sent from my CLT-L09 using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

    Oct 17, 2005
    12,313
    At Sea Level
    The fact the dealer offered the trade is all you need to know... of course it is good for them.

    But that does not automatically make it bad for you.

    Are you ready for something new? How important is top down driving? Do you like the F12 in general, and the spec of the car in question?
     
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  5. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Sounds like your concern is not whether you are desiring the opportunity of an F12 but rather money or value for trade down the line. These cars are more about passion instead of short term investment. Both are the best of the last PF Ferrari's. One of each is a good option otherwise the NA V12 is hands down a phenomenal and brutal engine. Maybe ask yourself if you are a mid engine for mid-front engine guy and go with your gut. The fact that you are perhaps looking to move on may also be telling.
     
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  6. Avia11

    Avia11 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2017
    864
    San Diego, CA
    I see your point, I am not overtly concerned with the value for short term investment. I am more trying to figure out why a dealer would offer that kind of trade. As you said the F12 is a phenom machine, but I love my 458. The question isn't should I get an F12/812, the question was more, should I get an F12/812 now in this incredible "deal." My gut tells me to hold on to the 458 and down the road pick up an 812 or F12. I was hoping to get more of an experts perspective on that approach. I drove the F12 last Friday and it was phenomenal, I was flying in triple digits very quickly and it sounded awesome just not as loud as the 458. Thanks for the help!
     
  7. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Dealers make offers mostly based on which models can turn a quick profit. Perhaps this reflects the popularity of NA over turbo in the pre-owned mid-engine market. To decide if a deal is for you still depends on what you really want to own and drive if resale is not the main concern. Best.
     
  8. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
    Hopefully some place nice.
    Full Name:
    A.B
    If your gut feeling is that you need to hold on to the 458 and then add the V12 later, that's probably the best bet. They are very different. One is the open top mide engined experience, the other is not.

    You mention the F12 and 812 in a bit of the same "sentence". You need to experience both cars, because they are NOT the same. Like I said elsewhere, the 812 is not just an F12 2.0, it's an evolution and a pretty big leap forward. Giving an 812 a thorough test might put you in a better position - or confuse you even more. But I've yet to meet someone who drove an F12 and then an 812, whom walked from the 812 back to the F12.
     
  9. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
    6,702
    As a former F12 owner and a current 812 owner, I could not possibly agree more.
     
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  10. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Just to keep things fair, the 812 is more advanced from the chair than the F12 but I had no interest in it from its looks and the stock seats are not a strong point. All follow-on versions of the same model have improvements. These improvements actually exist when the current model is still for sale. For instance, the LaF/Speciale brakes were standard for a long time yet the other models did not get the upgrade during production, etc. However, the 812 did not get the reception from auto reviewers that the F12 enjoyed. Folks were still ordering the F12 when the 812 was on its way in. There's a history there being left out of the discussion that for me is important. I don't think anyone said they were the same.

    Since the OP is concerned about future values there is likely no better way at the moment to lose money then to buy a new 812 and sell in a couple years. There's one at the area detail shop with a $495k sticker. Add tax, plates, correction, PPF, etc. and there's some serious hair cutting compared to a 458 or F12 for sure. That is, if you are a flipper and not in love with the car.
     
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  11. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2017
    6,702
    Solid State is correct. An 812 is certainly not investment grade. It’s true that the 812 is dropping more/faster than just about anything else. I have a relatively high spec near-$500 MSRP and I harbor no illusions about its value were I to try and lay it down right now (would probably lose more than $100,000 for 4 months and less than 1000 miles). For me, none of that matters as I intend to have a 30 year ownership window. I wanted the penultimate V12 spec’d to my exact taste before the GPF/hybrid/turbo/KERS monstrosities became the norm. I knew that being a small time enthusiast, I would not qualify for a 812 VS so I took the next best option.

    If money is a large component of the decision making calculus, I think the F12 stands alone. To me, it offers an unmatched value in the late model super car space. That said, the F12 will continue to trend lower as it has not yet reached it’s bottom. Regardless of which car, the F12 or the 812, got the better initial reception, the value erosion was somewhat swift for both cars. I bought my CPO F12 with 259 miles for $115,000 less than the original MSRP, then proceeded to lose $80,000 during my 2 years and 2000 miles of ownership. Through that process, I learned all sorts of lessons about V12 Ferrari’s, mostly that I should focus on the joy of ownership rather than the cost of ownership. In the end, I do think that because the 812 is indisputably a much better car than the F12, a permanent and substantial price walk between the two cars will persist. Anecdotally, the concerns about the 812’s appearance have largely tempered as more people have seen the car in the wild.

    Having said all that, the original decision between the 458 and F12 comes down to which car creates more emotion and just how meaningful the money part is. If I loved the 458 Spider and the F12 somewhat equally, I would probably save my nickels and wait for the F12 to come down a little further and then make room for both in the collection 12-18 months from now.
     
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  12. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    722
    At present the 458 is in high demand and is an easy sell for the dealer. It’s value is stable.

    As good as the F12 is, it’s value is decreasing and it’s not an easy sell.

    So for the dealer the swap is a win win.

    Maybe if you divulge some details better advice can be given.

    If in doubt sit tight good F12 deals will continue.
     
  13. JasonN

    JasonN Formula Junior

    Sep 24, 2017
    289
    Full Name:
    Jason
    I have a 458 Spider and just got an 812. 2 completely different driving experiences. I’m keeping them both and would not be able to decide at this point which one to sell if I could only have one.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  14. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula 3
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    Oct 17, 2015
    2,419
    You need to keep your 458 and buy a F12. Then you will be complete.
     
  15. nimamd

    nimamd Karting

    Mar 25, 2016
    101
    Could you elaborate the differences? Which one is more fun in terms of sound, emotion etc.?
     
  16. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota F1 Veteran

    May 29, 2019
    6,023
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    Your question is incredibly difficult to answer like that I think. I know I'm not the one you ask, but I think most will concur.

    If I may offer up an alternative. Why not rent an 812 for a weekend or a week and see for yourself what it is all about?
     
  17. nimamd

    nimamd Karting

    Mar 25, 2016
    101
    Where I live, there is no F12 or 812 available to rent.
     
  18. JasonN

    JasonN Formula Junior

    Sep 24, 2017
    289
    Full Name:
    Jason
    The sounds are different but it’s hard to explain in words. The V12 just “sings”. Think of a two stroke motorcycle vs a 4 stroke. At 9000 RPM the V12 is firing more cylinders and makes it sound like it’s spinning faster than the V8. Just like a 2 stroke sounds like it’s spinning twice as fast as a 4 stroke because it’s firing every revolution instead of ever other one. In fact when shifting by ear, I’ll hit the rev limiter in the 458 because it doesn’t sound like it’s ready for the next gear. The 812 at 9000 sounds more like 12,000.

    With the top down on a nice day, the 458 is hard to beat. Open air, and lovely engine sound. With the 812, you are more cooped up and closed in. You don’t get the same type of sound in the car while driving. The people outside of the car get most of that incredible sound.

    As far as performance, the 458 is more nimble and you can see the road better. The 812 has better brakes and the steering is quite a bit quicker even twitchy at high speeds. Although with the rear steering, it drives like a smaller car but not the same as the 458 where you are very close to the front wheels. I’d say the 458 is more comfortable at high speeds but that could be the steering I mentioned earlier.

    One thing is for certain though, the 812 is much faster and puts power to the ground unlike any car I have ever owned or driven. It is an absolute beast and hard to imagine a car being faster (acceleration) but there are and likely cars like the SF90 will make it seem like a Prius.

    Knowing what I know now, I’m not sure I’d trade the 458 for the 812 considering the $$ difference. Knowing what I know now, I’d keep them both like I did!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. nimamd

    nimamd Karting

    Mar 25, 2016
    101
    Thank you so much for the information. I hope the sound of the new 812 GTS would not get ruined by the mandatory GPF filter.
     

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