The part about the bass is interesting Tony. There was a long thread in the 360 section last year concerning problems with GL-5 and brass parts in the 360 gearbox. If RL is specifically saying their oil has the ability to NOT harm the brass, that is reassuring. I don’t change my belts every three years either, but Tony has been a great help to me with the Dino and deserves some respect.
Tony - he has seen the insides of more gearboxes than you because he is a professional Ferrari mechanic, and has to clean up after internet warriors like yourself who use the wrong oil. I bet he's never seen the inside of his own Ferrari's gearboxes, because he's never had to. I won't end up with bent valves - I'll have a fine running car for years because it's being looked after by a REAL expert, not an internet expert.
I am not an expert, but did work in a lubricants lab for Gulf Oil along time ago, so I do know how oils are rated, the tests done etc. This attached article does a good job explaining why the matter is not as straightforward as relying on the factory recommendations of 30 years ago. The fact is that the shift quality in the older Ferrari transaxle is better with the GL4. There may well be some shock load tradeoff that affects other transmission aspects of longevity. But nobody, Ferrari or Redline, has ever tested for this so all you have are anecdotes by mechanics and owners, and reliance on the chemistry and engineering principles to guide a choice. MTL holds up well under this type of assessment, and those that say otherwise just defer to the omnipotent authorities who unfortunately do not or can not explain their rationale. As for a pile of metal being the end result of being independent minded, so be it, thinking for oneself does require self accountability, and you are correct to not trust my advice as I have no skin in the game on your car. For me, with 80,000km of smooth shifting on my 3.2 over 15 years, and having seen how various products actually performed, I choose the enjoyable shift quality as the ownership priority.
I have read elsewhere that Agip Rotra MP 85w-90 was classified as a GL-4 when it was the recommended gearbox oil for our cars, but then later Agip changed its classification to GL-5? Is that possible/likely? Certainly Agip Rotra MP 80w-90 which replaced it is GL-5, but the original wasn't from what I have read.
Lube companies are not experts (and should not be expected to be) when it comes to old vehicles. Neither are car manufacturers. Try taking an old Road Runner to a Chrysler dealer for a tuneup and also asking them what oil to put in it. They are going to tell you to take it to a shop that works on old vehicles because their mechs/techs doesn't know anything about them.... Once you own a vehicle that does not fall within the current "support" era of products/maintenance, your "support" reverts to folks who continue to work on those older vehicles and are aware of what products function best, irrespective of what the original factory recommendations were. The factory-recommended products of 30+ years ago contained a different chemical makeup than the "same" products do today. So for old vehicles, experience in working on them provides the knowledge of which modern products work best.
Dean- Possibly best if we both refrain from mud-slinging and concentrate on what's the best oil, I am quite willing to listen to recommendations on this forum but cross referenced that with the people who make the product. If people don't want to take heed of what's being told by them then that's their prerogative. Its rather bold you to predict my capabilities as we have never met but I am a mechanical engineer by trade. I am no internet warrior and never portrayed myself as a internet expert either as you sarcastically point out, the facts presented by me are not my opinion or indeed my recommendation but that of Redline [+ 4 other oil companies I contacted] who are the people putting their product on the line for our use. Its true these specifications where developed with mineral based oils 40+ years ago but the guy from Castrol when challenged with that very question stated that they look at the original spec and use a comparable oil based on modern lubricants, which is why they produced their classic oil range. So for you to say I am using the wrong oil is rather disingenuous of you. I have owned both my cars for 20 years, restored both to top condition and not had any problems with either. I sincerely hope you don't end up with bent valves but for piece of mind I would rather change the belts considering the cost of such items than risk belt failure. Best Tony
Thanks for the interesting article. I found this section relevant So, what do we put in transaxles where the transmission and differential are combined in one unit? This is a good question, and the answer lies in the design and surface area of the gears. If the contact surfaces of the gears are big enough to carry the weight and torque necessary, we depend less on the oil and its additives. If the surface area is compact, we need to depend more on the additive's ability to handle the boundary lubrication. When we have transaxles, we have to depend on the manufacturer to tell us what product is correct So my conclusion is in the absence of manufacturer's support I hope you would agree we look to the next port of call, the people who make the stuff.? It not all about clean shifting but if you have had success with the oil you use, then great Tony
So its been trial and error for many years then until the shop have build up enough knowledge and experience to now tell you whats the best oil.... Really -Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me
I have said many times here - do what YOU are comfortable doing. Your decision to use current oil company's recommendations over using a long-time mechanic's experience with lubes in these cars is YOUR decision. It's no different than cam belt change "requirements" - which Ferrari themselves changed during production of the cars, even though cam belts themselves didn't change at all. They also changed oil spec during the run. So what do you use, the original Ferrari engine oil spec, the later Ferrari engine oil spec, or a current oil that isn't either of those? Again, it's about what you feel comfortable with. But the reality is that car companies have the same level of "learning by experience" that everyone else does... Look at the number of changes that are made in production to correct problems that show up in use.
Yes - I would appreciate it if you refrained from the snide remarks putting others down - like the belief that only oil people are "professionals" or calling me the "type that will end up with bent valves". The recommendations given to you by 4 oil companies are in line with their interpretation of what Ferrari said. If Ferrari turned around today and said "we recommend distilled water for the gearbox lubricant" the oil companies would produce distilled water by the quart and would recommend it for your Ferrari. They tow the factory line. Many of Ferrari's recommendations have changed over the years based on their newer cars, but they have made the change blanket over the range - like the belt change interval. It was 5 years, but then later they changed "all V8 cars to 3 years" with no change in belt technology - because of failings in a latter model. I believe they did the same with Gl4 to GL5 - they recommended it over the V8 range, despite recommending GL4 when the cars were made. And there's a hint that this could have been ignorance on their part that "GL5 > GL4 so use that instead". But I would be pretty certain that the oil companies have not dismantled an 80s vintage Ferrari transmission recently - if at all. This is where I trust my mechanic who has - many times over. He's seen the damage consistent with the wrong type of oil for our transmissions. I guess you are more prepared to put faith in technical specs and recommendations of experts in that field - I'm more prepared to put faith in hard physical evidence, and trust the recommendations of experts in that field. Each to their own. And thank you - my car is booked in for belts and cam timing. And a change to MTL at the same time Dino
Here is an extract from an old thread by a knowledgable Ferrari menchanic and Fchat poster... "My shop is right down the road from Redline and we use their products in the race cars. I have had many long conversations with them about their products and their recomendations. Ferrari specs GL5 gear oils for the transmissions. Due to Ferraris specs Redline will not officially suggest anything other than GL5 gear oils. GL5 basically means an oil that is designed for medium to high offset hypoid differentials. MTL is a GL4 lubricant which means it is designed for medium to low offset hypoid gears. In the 308, 328, 348, 355 transaxles there are NO hypoid gears of any type, hi, low, or medium, offset. I am not ordinarily an experimenter with others cars except in circumstances where the official way is obviously not working but I have seen MTL used with great success and zero problems in 308 transmissions since the product was introduced many years ago. It was also the oil of choice in the transaxles of the 355 and 348 Challenge race cars with zero problems. Those transmissions were subjected to greater stresses and heat in one weekend than most of our transmissions are in a lifetime. I cannot say that however of the AGIP oil spec'd by Ferrari at the time. One session at the track finished off several transaxles and we were told unofficially by Ferrari to quit using it in cars that would see track service. That garbage did remain the official oil. I have been using MTL in customer cars that had chronic shifting complaints for several years including one 85 308 in daily service with over 115,000 miles on it and the owner is pleased to this day how his transmission performs. It's great oil. If you have a shifting problem use it. I would not use it in any transaxle in a 275, 330, 365, BB, BBi, TR, 288, F40, 550, 456, 360, 430, 612, or 599. Those are all medium offset hypoid gear differentials and should have GL5 oil."
Agree up to a point Mike , but I do hope you will agree that this forum is about swapping information so we all benefit, not berating someone who states a view, Redline's in this instance, that doesn't fall into line with others peoples POV. It could be that they are annoyed they have recommended the wrong oil and don't like it - I don't know. But the basis of my intervention was based on looking at the advice, checking the facts and sound engineering principles which where backed up by several oil companies . Its not a question of what I feel comfortable with, its following my own technical research in consultation with others more qualified than me in their field. Is there a updated oil spec from Ferrari, if so then please post it here, but in the absence of any such technical bulletin, then any sound engineer will go back to philosophies set by the manufacturer at the time of production and not invent a spec based on what some mechanic in the USA may prefer, regardless of how good or knowledgeable he is. Forum users can then decide for themselves in a balanced way, the advice I gave was Redlines, if you choose to ignore then that's for you [and others] to consider. Best tony
Dean - really, is that called for and adding to the discussion in a positive way. Quit the bellyaching and discuss the points, over here we say play the ball not the man. Best tony
I totally agree with you re sharing info! But, I have to repeat that a Redline tech in 2017 told me that MTL IS appropriate for my 328. So there is conflicting advice from the same manufacturer.
https://www.api.org/~/media/files/certification/engine-oil-diesel/publications/1560-eighth-edition-april-2013.pdf Andy - GL4 & 5 Spec's from API - interesting the remark high speed conditions? Does a Ferrari come under that category. Tony
Your too sensitive by far Dean - you took the professional remark as a slight to your mechanic, the remark was in the context of the oil companies, your mechanic is not a professional in that field. I apologise if you took that as an insult but internet warrior and expert is insulting too. So lets shake hands and call it a day.
My two takeaways from that are: The designation API GL-4 denotes lubricants intended for axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe conditions of speed and load and The designation API GL-5 denotes lubricants intended for gears, particularly hypoid gears, in axles operating under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and low-speed/high-torque conditions In our transaxles there are no hypoid gears at all. And I would consider our transaxles operate under "moderate to severe conditions of speed and load" not "various combinations of high-speed/shock load and low-speed/high-torque conditions".
Our small displacement engines are relatively low torque, and the transaxle is not at its design limits for power output, so the GL5 application description seems a stretch. Perhaps in a racing application, one might encounter unusual shock and load conditions, but even then "severe conditions" as described in GL4 would seem to cover that. These descriptive adjectives would not likely be defined engineering terms, hence we are forced to guess at what the engineers intend. The only solid and well described technical matter seems to be regarding the hypoid gears, which we don't have, and that dictates the factory recommendations for a gear oil with different fluid film characteristics. I think we also need to recognize that a transaxle is a fundamentally compromised design, with neither the gearbox syncro's nor the LS differential likely getting its truely optimized oil. It probably boils down to syncro wear, verses gear and bearing wear as the tradeoff (with further tradeoff against the function of the LSD). Any of these wear issues would require a transmission out rebuild. Based on very few transmission failures I am aware of from FChat over quite some time, but seeing plenty of shift quality issues, favouring oils that improve shift quality would be the reasonable focus. To complete the assessment, getting prices for syncros verses gears and bearing might be useful, I understand the syncros are getting difficult to source. Making the tradeoff against the lowest cost components would also be a reasonable way to look at things, in the event that there is indeed a tradeoff.
Interesting thread. I've always put Redline 75w90 NS in my 3x8 and Mondials, and have always been happy with the results. However, on my most current Mondial 3.2 coupe, even with RL 75w90NS in the gearbox, I've been fighting the 2nd gear problems (not going into 2nd easily even at operating temp), occasional grinding into gears, etc. This is a car with 4500 miles on it, in really as-new condition everywhere, and I know it hasn't been abused. I finally had my guys look at it, and they adjusted the shift linkage. Wow. Now shifts like butter into any gear, including 2nd, at any temperature, at any RPM. Moral of the story is: before you blame shifting issues on gear oil, make sure that your shift linkage is adjusted properly.
Would be great for a mechanic to post the precise method of adjusting the linkage for optimal shifting. Not sure what adjustments there are in the linkage, I thought shifter adjustment was done in the gear box itself, as described when doing a shift shaft seal replacement.
Under those same specs the reference is made:- GL4 In all cases, the equipment manufacturer's specific lubricant quality recommendations should be followed. GL5 Frictional requirements for axles equipped with limited-slip differentials are normally defined by the axle manufacturer. So we have basically gone around in circles - With the 308 UK version Ferrari specified AGIP F1 Rotra MP80W90, this is the specification of that oil http://www.francoparts.ro/files/produse/doc_romanian_105.pdf If we look at the viscosities are 40C & 100C then AGIP Rotra 80W90 = 144 & 15 GL5 Redline MTL = 50 & 10 GL4 Redline 75W90NS = 89 & 15 GL5 Castrol EPX80W90 = 132 & 14 GL5
To complete the factory view...Production change service bulletin...http://ferrari.cdyn.com/service_bulletins/sb00-23.pdf Note the purpose was to reduce the shifting effort while cold. To complete your comparison chart... AGIP Rotra SX 75W90 = 108 & 13.8 GL5 Even though AGIP suggest the then available LSX formula for limited slip applications, the Ferrari bulletin specified the SX formulation. Just more confusion regarding factory and oil supplier recommendations. Also to continue your product comparison... Redline MT-90 = 86.2 & 15.6 MT-85 = 61.1 & 12
I guess I focused on the descriptions of the purpose of the oil specification, and you focus on the "ah - just do what the manufacturer says". Also, I cannot find it now but I am sure I read somewhere that AGIP Rotra MP 80W90 was rates as GL4 in the 70s (and maybe early 80s). Certainly the modern replacement 85W90 is GL5, but somewhere along the line the 80W90 may have changed spec too. Interestingly the SX 75W90 in the bulletin Andy posted is rated as GL4, GL5 and MT1.
Adjustment is done on the selector forks with the sump cover removed, but there are other factors such as worn knuckle swivel joints that throw a spanner in the works. The 246 is relatively easy to do under the car but patience is needed and its a fiddly job Thanks, that's good info and the SX viscosities have dropped considerably from 144 @40C which would help cold shifting I would assume.
