FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX 2019: RACE ▄▀▄▀ SPOILERS ▀▄▀▄ | Page 10 | FerrariChat

FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX 2019: RACE ▄▀▄▀ SPOILERS ▀▄▀▄

Discussion in 'F1' started by SPEEDCORE, Oct 12, 2019.

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  1. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,839
    France
    The mistakes by the drivers should not hide the fact that the car did not have the required racing pace - Vettel could not follow Bottas and Hamilton was behind only because his race was wasted by a too early pit stop.
    And Leclerc could not even set the fastest lap after putting new tyres specifically for that purpose - after a few laps in the traffic the performance was already not there anymore.
    With a correct strategy from Mercedes, it would have been a 1-2 for them even with good starts by Vettel and Leclerc - with significantly lower tyres degradation, the Mercedes would have passed the Ferrari (not always easy on the track, but with two mandatory pit stops they would not have missed the opportunity).
    Blaming the drivers and believing the win was possible is just wishful thinking IMHO.
     
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  2. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
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    mathieu Jeantet
    Mainly agree with you but track position allowed to manage pace and I don't really know how powerful undercut is in Suzuka.
    Even with two stops it would have greatly complicated the Mercedes strategy.
     
  3. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,482
    #228 DeSoto, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    The car had no pace, but with not one but two cars having track position there was a slim chance if they had used one car only for blocking and pitting him always early to avoid undercuts. It could have been like at Spa, where Vettel finished 4th to help Leclerc win.

    Our drivers are making too many silly mistakes. Vettel has already a long story but the excuse of being a rookie is starting to look unconvincing for Leclerc: the greats didn't make many mistakes even when they were rookies, so he really needs to learn quick if he doesn't want to end being the Bottas of Vettel's replacement.
     
  4. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
    11,888
    Nonsense
     
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  5. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 3, 2006
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    Starting 1st and 2nd on the grid to finish 2nd and 7th in the end is still not a good result for Ferrari.
    They had the fastest car, but Vettel ruined his chances by a false start, and Leclerc couldn't avoid making contact with another car.
     
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  6. sp1der

    sp1der F1 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2009
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    Simon Ashley
    Or ban carbon wings and go back to aluminium that likely would stay on the car even if damaged
     
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  7. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I do think Max was right when Horner told him Leclerc crashing into him was not even investigated...

    that said not seen the race apart from first corner (already knew the result) so don't know if he complained more than that
     
  8. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
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    mathieu Jeantet

    Don't want to be rude ,
    Following passionately formula one since 1986 I can tell you that you are completely wrong on the last point.
    More or less the greatest are all error prone at the beginning of their career,
    Compared to Senna and Schumacher, Leclerc just follows the same path.
     
  9. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    All in all a boring race. Ferrari lost it in lap 1, bummer. As much as I love Leclerc, that was stupid and cost him and Max the race.

    Only interesting thing was Hamilton trying to catch Vettel, but no.

    Funny how MB scored the Constructors title. Congrats to them. Hopefully Ferrari will dominate next year.
     
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  10. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,482
    #235 DeSoto, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    I hope so, only time will tell.

    But remember that there are other drivers in the grid who beat Vettel too and at some time they´ll become available.
     
  11. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,482
    Everybody makes mistakes at the beginning... but some beginnings are better than others.

    I´m not saying that Leclerc is doing a bad season, but let´s not put all our hopes on the guy. If you look back at his season you´ll see almost one mistake per race. Even when he won at Belgium and Italy he missed a chicane during the race, the same kind of small error that cost the win at Canada.

    So: a good beginning, but still room for improvement.
     
  12. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

    Jun 13, 2014
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    Jeff
    Having been a fan since 1986, you must remember Suzuka in 1990 when those two guys took one another out at the first corner. What were their names? Oh, yeh, Senna and Prost. I hear they had pretty good racing careers in spite of being error-prone.
     
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  13. DGS

    DGS Six Time F1 World Champ
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    May 27, 2003
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    Aluminum is fairly brittle. Low carbon mild steel will deform, rather than crack.
    Of course, tempered steel will stand a lot, too ... and really hold an edge. ;)
    Metal end plates -- like the Greek chariot from "Ben Hur", going out to slash competitor's wheels. :p
    Formula Demolition. :D

    Rubber end plates would violate the rules about "moveable surfaces".

    But if we're going to get crying and penalties every time two cars touch, we need ...
    .... rubber baby buggy bumpers. :D:D:D
     
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  14. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
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    mathieu Jeantet
    Indeed it was painful to watch ( 1989 too in Suzuka )
    Brazil 1990 , senna lost the race while leading colliding with nakajima (lapped in a tyrrel )
    Just one example among so many ( spa 1987 between mansell and Senna ) etc ...
     
  15. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Perfectly said, but try saying that three times fast!
     
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  16. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    There was no driver"s "error" in Suzuka in 1990.
    This was the culmination of an intense rivalry between 2 ex-team mates, both with plenty of experience.
    Starting from pole, Prost had no intention of letting Senna by, so didn't give him any space at the start.
    Senna was determined to settle the issue here and there by ramming Prost car if necessary, which he did, eliminationg both cars..
    Then Senna had to grovel to Ballestre, and pretend the incident wasn't intentional, to keep his licence and drive the next year.
    Years later, Senna confessed he had lied, and planned the crash all along, to prevent Prost bagging the championship.
    A clear example of red mist.
     
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  17. pilotoCS

    pilotoCS F1 World Champ
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    Exactly the reason I've never placed Senna on the god-like pedestal that many others have. And, I've heard Mario Andretti (more or less) express the same sentiment about Senna.
     
  18. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 22, 2004
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    I told you guys that MISSIONWINNOW thing is a jinx......:D
     
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  19. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    Senna’s actions could have gotten Prost injured or killed, which is why he’s a dyck in my book despite being hugely talented. Schumey too, and Hamilton trying to back up Rosberg into Vettel in the last race in 2016 was a dyck move. Speaking of Vettel, multi21 was a dyck move too. Prost Suzuka 89. And that’s why I have nothing but kudos for Lauda as a driver-he kept the wackiness out of the cockpit....lol.
     
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  20. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 3, 2006
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    Yep, there is often a dark side to a successful driver.
    Lauda was (and still is) a hard act to follow.
     
  21. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2005
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    I think you're leaving out a lot of the Prost/Ballestre hijinks, which included placing Senna on the dirty side of the circuit, in spite of qualifying on pole. Senna determined at that point that he would passive-aggressively let "nature take its course", but I have to say that the frustration around the Prost/Ballestre political dynamic was both valid and contributed to the tension in a significant way. (e.g. Senna being DQ'd from the '89 race despite winning after the "collision" between the same duo)
     
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  22. LamboLover

    LamboLover F1 Rookie

    Jul 16, 2006
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    In fairness to Charles here, I think he was on pace once he backed off Bottas to make a run. It looked like he got caught up behind a Toro at the very last chicane at the last lap or so.
     
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  23. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 3, 2006
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    Yes, there is that to take into consideration. I never understood why pole position was switched to the other side of the track. Maybe some sinister plot from Prost? I don't know. But even then, I can't accept that as an excuse for Senna deliberately ramming Prost just after the start to make his point (and seal the championship in his favour).
    On that day, Senna lost control completely, and many discovered his dark side too.

    For the 89 Suzuka incident, I think it was 50/50 between the 2 protagonists. Senna had no chance to overtake cleanly there, and Prost resisted the move aggressively. Contact was inevitable, thankfully it was at low speed, so not much damage. Prost stalled and came off worse, but Senna was disqualified for being judged as the culprit in that move probably, and also for receiving outside assistance, remember.
     
  24. ricksb

    ricksb F1 Veteran

    Apr 12, 2005
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    I think it was for rejoining the track after using an off-circuit emergency road. Very dubious but you are correct that Senna intentionally ran him off knowing that he would win the WDC if both dnf'd in 1990.

    Here it is:

    Senna was disqualified from the Japanese Grand Prix on the grounds that by cutting the chicane on lap 47 he had not completed the full race distance
     
  25. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    The press is aligned with your assessment and the errors by the drivers of Ferrari eliminated any sound chance at victory
     

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