Best Winter Tires for California T?

You are doing the correct thing by not driving on the PS4S at ambient temperatures lower than 7°C. I used to drive in Winter with my BMWs but I drive a RAM 4x4 pickup now and don't drive my Cali in Winter but I understand the Pirelli Winter Sottozero Serie II is the recommended Winter tire for the Cali as they perform at the top level and importantly they come in the correct size for the Cali's standard 20" rims. While other tires are also good they usually do not come in the correct size (too small) for Ferraris and will likely affect high speed handling. The Pirelli tires belong to a special class of highspeed performance Winter tires and they are incredible. I used to drive on similar tires with my BMWs. They were wonderful and you know how tail-happy BMWs are.

With exotic highspeed Winter tires you also have to be quick about buying them because they only make a very limited quantity each year and so they tend to run out quickly at the tire stores.

 

In the words of R&T's Bob: "Good tires, but certaintly not great tires" especially if driven in snow with a RWD car.

If you're not going to drive in snow, just cold, and snow tires are not mandated you're probably best to get a set of good all-season tires--like Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3--that work well at low (though not extreme) temperatures and rain. I loved them on my BMW.

 

Perhaps a dumb question from someone in the Sun Belt. Do you folks mount the winter tires on the same wheels after removing summer tires or just have a new set of wheels/winter tires mounted?
T

 

You are clearly not addressing the OP’s question.

The OP asked about tires that are best for his driving a Cali at average speeds of 150+ kph and max speeds up to 300+ kph and on occasions at temperatures down to -5°C. I also see you’re from Montreal where it’s even colder than the Toronto area where even we sometimes get road conditions lower than -20°C here. So we are clearly not discussing rainy roads under autumn conditions. People who can afford the best tires here generally use the best Summer tires in warm weather and then switch to high performance Winter tires on their high performance cars once road temperatures drop past 8 to 7°C because that’s the approximate lower limit for summer tire compound. We don’t tempt fate because it can definitely snow here in Autumn and frost on the road is common before Winter.

So we are definitely discussing Winter and there are no other Winter tires recommended for the Cali. Anyone who has compared Winter tire rubber compound to All-season tire compound will tell you that Winter tire compound is much safer than All-season tire compound for winter driving. High performance Winter tires are more expensive than All-season tires but they work wonders under winter conditions.

All it takes is one slip on a wet road that has an icy patch because it crosses over a windy bridge or a section shaded from the sun at times to send you off the road because your tires were not designed for ice, as well as snow.

 

I always used complete sets of extra wheels for winter.

Swapping tires on one set of rims will stress the beads on the tires, can damage them and the rims and you also need to make sure the wheels are properly rebalanced every time. These are all very real and common risks. It also takes more time to perform the change and costs more in labour. You can buy a used set of Cali rims instead and keep your Summer wheels looking their best. The salt and gravel on winter roads will eventually ruin expensive rims.

I also always swapped my own wheels because I do it much better than any tire shop would as I do it very carefully by hand using a hand-operated torque wrench set to exact torque settings designed for each vehicle I work on. I make sure the rims are perfectly aligned on the hub faces and I clean these surfaces beforehand and apply a thin layer of lithium grease to make it easier to release the wheels when they are removed. Service and tire shops will use air guns and whatever torque setting they use for all vehicles. They value speed and save labour and those things work against your interest.

Also remember every time a wheel is swapped in haste or by people not used to exotic cars, there is a high chance that the rim(s) will contact your expensive Brembo brake covers and chip some of that expensive paint job off - it can be very expensive to repair those bumps. And you have to document before/after, inspect them carefully every time or it can get awkward to prove they caused the damage once you have left the tire shop. I just do it myself and save the hassles. It’s a good physical workout. Just don’t do it in haste.

Of course, I don’t swap wheels anymore because I also drive a RAM 4x4 pickup truck all year round and I love driving that vehicle as much as I enjoy driving my modified Cali30 or my 675LT Spider. The RAM works fine on its original all-season tires even on light snow so long as you don’t do drive stupid. It’s a good idea to take whatever winter vehicle you have to acclimatize your driving habits on typically treacherous local conditions, using a deserted big parking lot to practise on as you begin your annual winter driving experience.

 

Hi, clearly you were not following the evolution of the discussion.

I commented on XSpeed's OP which mentioned driving in temperatures between 1 and 5 deg. C with excursions to -5 C. There was no mention of 150 - 300 kph, no mention of snow and the only consideration for swapping out the PS4S tires was that these are not recommended for use at these temperatures. Hence my recommendation for the A/3 (or A/S+) which, per Michelin, is a tire "combining summer levels of wet and dry grip with cold weather and light snow-mobility". I'm surmising that the OP has no intention of driving his Cali in a blizzard. Having said this, I've no idea if these are available in Cali size but maybe another all-season tire is.

The A/S 3+ are available up to Y-rated (up to the desired 300 kph) whereas the winters are only V-rated, which is totally expected because of their very specific duty mission, so not meeting the 300 kph requirement.

I mentioned the rain capability of these tires as it is typical to have more rain (if not snow) in the colder months. At -5 C lows we are clearly not talking about Montreal weather but nevertheless, before the use of winter tires was mandated, many people here used all-season tires year round - though not necessarily on Ferraris ;-)

 

Not dumb at all - people do both.

I always have an extra set of wheels and tires for the winters, mostly to avoid the hassle of arranging to bring the tires in for a swap before the first snow when everybody else is doing the same.

I tend to reduce wheel diameter, where possible, to get a taller sidewall tire to better cope with the inevitable wheel-eating pot holes that develop during the winter and especially in spring. Also, I'll try to go a little narrower on the tread width for better bite in the snow. No 300 km/h driving around here in the winter.

 

Thank you! Very useful info. I currently have 20" rims. We don't get much snow here, and if we do, it's Armageddon on the roads. I'm mainly looking for a little dry weather, low temperature insurance since I like driving the Cali in the early mornings before traffic picks up, and our typical winter temp in the AM is in the 0 - 5 C, which I don't feel comfortable doing in summer tires.
T

 

That’s smart, I once rode with a friend who ha summer tires on his car in the winter. Was one of the scariest rides I ever had. From that point on I’ve been pretty serious about tire safety.

To the question on weather or not having a spare set of rims, it’s probably the best to have a spare set. And as 4th said you can change them yourself ensuring they are put on and torqued properly. It also gives you a good chance to clean your summer tires and rims.

 

I have Michilen Aplinas winter tires on a set of California 30 rims that I bought off this site. They should also fit my incoming Portofino and they worked great on my CaliT in the past! Recommend you put them on once it consistently goes below 10C.

 

19 or 20" rims?
T

 

You're correct in that XSpeed did not mention "...average speeds of 150+ kph and max speeds up to 300+ kph..." in this thread. That was my oversight as he posted his dashboard display on a different thread on Thursday. I had confused that posting with this thread. My bad.

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However, he was clear about the occasional -5°C requirement in this thread. I value my life (and my car) as well as the health and property of other people I share the roads with. I don't think ice and Winter conditions are good ingredients for attempting to reproduce extreme Summer driving speeds. I actually do not even speed under Summer conditions. I just accelerate to legal speed limits very quickly and corner within the performance envelope of my cars while enjoying "the noise" and drama from the changing of gears. However I do go very fast on the local F1 track.

Anyway most drivers who have driven for years in Ontario or Québec will say the most dangerous Winter driving time is actually at the start of the cold season when some people have the wrong tires, conditions change from wet to icy without warning. That's when most climate-related accidents occur. It is also when you are just getting used to having to slow down, work with less grip and prepare for ice. The operative idea here is to SLOW DOWN.

However with regard to speed you're partially right in pointing out the Y-rated Michelin vs the Pirellis but the SottoZeros do come W-rated, good to 270 kph, with the slightly narrower 235/45-20, which is arguably a better front tire choice for Winter conditions. I do not have any experience on the A/S 3+ tires as I don't run all-season tires on my performance cars. Having mentioned this, I think the 3+ do look like excellent Summer tires, intended for people who can muddle through brief exposures to Winter conditions. I say muddle through because this tire is obviously not Michelin's preferred performance tire for Winter conditions.

Tirerack apparently did some Winter testing with the 3+ and its rivals and they concluded the 3+ is an excellent tire but as a group, the (3+ and other) tested tires' ...

"...Ice traction levels are still an area where these tires struggle somewhat, and they are not able to match the grip of dedicated winter tires, or even regular passenger all-season tires...".​

For me the part where it says "...or even regular passenger all-season tires..." is worrisome because obviously the Cali is going to put more power down, quicker than regular passenger vehicles. Michelin is making some really excellent tires but the (Pilot Sport) A/S 3+ is not Michelin's preferred Winter Performance tire. You know, the issues relating to handling snow are not as serious a concern as those pertaining to ice. People also slow down when they see snow but ice can be invisible on clear mornings, tucked in under snowy tracks and lurking in partly shaded wet sections, on otherwise dry roads. If you want safety, your Winter tires must be decent on ice.

At any rate, we'll have to see if XSpeed intends to safely test the 300 kph limit in his Cali under dry moderate Winter conditions but we in Canada obviously cannot do that without losing our licenses and our cars. So I'm not sure what use the Y-rating will be for us. IMO not even Mont Tremblant has a long enough highspeed section to facilitate that and I don't think the F1 track is open over the Winter.

 

Apparently, Michelin also offers the Pilot Alpin PA4 in suitable sizes for the Cali, V- and W-rated. Should also be an excellent Winter performance tire. As I said before, it's important to inquire early as this exotic type of tire sells out quickly each year and you also need to find the sizes you prefer.

 

Its the California 30 rims, I think they 20s and they were great for the little time I used them, cant wait for Porto to arrive and try them on that ride ETA December.

 

Thanks for your valuable input !

Would you have a preference between Michelin Alpin PA4 and Pirelli Sottozero, regarding only the ice grip?

for a Portofino the front becomes 235/35 (instead of 245) but the rear stays 285? (that is what they offered me).

 

generally rule of thumb is smaller the wheel and narrow is better...

 

Was in a Lusso a week ago fitted with MPS4S. Roads were dry and the car had been driving for a while. It was 7 degrees and it was in wet mode. Even with the 4wd system, it almost got away on the onramp. You are taking a huge risk driving on that tyre in those temps. Don't. It drops off like an anvil dropped from a crane below 10.
Spent 6 hours in the very same car yesterday with speeds approaching 150 mph but now with PA4 on it. It was still a handful in sport on wet roads, but it was easy to get the tyres into the 35-40 degree range and traction was excellent. Temps were around 5 degrees. Had room permitted, I would feel safe going 180+. It was dead straight and felt planted. No excessive squirming or anything. I have had similar good experiences with Sottos on the FF as well. Either will work well for what you are doing and the power on tap in the T.

 

Regarding 19 vs. 20. You will not see a difference in grip. The 19 will ride softer, but also float more. It will be less suceptible to damage, which can be good in winter if you either slide into a curb during a turn, or if small curbs or edges hide under the snow.
Narrow tyres will only do something good if you are mostly on hardpacked snpw and ice, or if there's always a lot of standing water. If the roads are without snow and often dry or just normally wet etc. narrow tyres will not help you. They may in fact give you less traction, just like a narrower summer tyre will on hot days in dry and normal rainy conditions.

You can choose the 19 if you want the added safety against pot holes, curbs etc. but seeing that you are not exactly in Helsinki winter conditions, don't go super narrow. Stick to oem winter tyre width. The size they offer you is the same size as is used on the Lusso. It's good for what you are doing.

EDIT: In terms of ice grip, my general experience is that Michelin does this better.

 

wow you can get nokian hakkas for the cali now!!!!!
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245/40R19

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