Scud over CS and Speciale Chris Harris | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Scud over CS and Speciale Chris Harris

Discussion in '360/430' started by smdzucladoc, Jun 21, 2019.

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  1. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Quite a conclusion to reach when I already explained all of the above. He's only experienced a single example as he opens with. It really can be attributed to so many variables. On the day it may well have been true with those two examples.

    I wonder how many Scuds running around with glazed pads, and subsequently under performing brakes? Probably more than you think...
     
  2. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #202 360trev, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    They are different brakes and different suspension. Both cars have brakes from Brembo. The spring rates are in fact setup softer on the Scuderia for improved ride quality (no bad thing) and ride height was raised for more working travel, also the dampers use newer lighter versions, again from ZF Sach.

    The CS has brakes from the stock F430 ccm setup. That is 380x32 ccms at front with comparatively small pad swept area. They are good but calipers where originally designed for steels so pad surface area wasn't as optimized as it should be for ccm requirements. Still for the levels of tire grip available and weight of vehicle they are excellent.

    The Scuderia has 398x34 ccms which while being a tiny fraction bigger has some advantages the biggest was in fact in the calipers where they are significantly larger pad swept area specifically to improve ccms stopping.

    The problem with CCMs on the street is they need to be used aggressively and hard to stop them glazing and yielding to very poor friction coefficients if not bedded in properly. I recall the instructions from factory for new pads was something crazy like 30 odd stops from 140mph.. Not many cars going to go through that...
     
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  3. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Again this is an isolated example and not representative. Yes the Scud is quicker but not starship quicker and this video is click bate designed to exaggerate the difference. Plus if the CS was straight piped title suggests and not remapped correctly it would actually loose power...

    Weight of specific vehicle options, amount of fuel on board, current gear the car was in, driver reaction time, etc etc. Its so insanely unscientific it tells us nothing..
     
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  4. Sky Hye

    Sky Hye Formula Junior
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    My scud brakes suck. How do I correct the glazing?
     
  5. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I thought CS brakes were from the Enzo?
     
  6. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    #206 freshmeat, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    It’s far from an isolated incident.

    I’ve been on both the receiving and giving end of this gap in straight line speed/acceleration. To insist on otherwise is utterly delusional...

    And FYI, both drivers in that video had the same amount of fuel, both had a passenger, and both started from the same gear at the same rolling speed as agreed upon prior to the race (as in all gt board drag races). Not to mention the scud was stock and cs did have a tune to go w his straight pipe.
     
  7. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    You can try the Ferrari CCM brake pad bedding procedure, and it that doesn't work, new pads then the procedure should fix it right up. My brakes were performing poorly and dealer said my pads had visible signs of overheating (car was used, recent purchase for me at the time). I had new installed and performance was night and day, but not immediately...had to break in and bed new pads.
     
  8. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Might need to change your pads and after you do that, try bedding them in. Also, while you're at, upgrade your brake fluid to 600.

    I think at minimum you need to do 6 firm stops (firm as in maximum without locking up) of each of the following:
    • 100-0 mph
    • 70-0 mph
    • 45-0 mph
     
  9. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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  10. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Sorry I don't deal with non scientific methods... Lets look facts are;

    Factory Timed : Challenge Stradale
    0-60mph takes 4.1 seconds.
    0-100mph takes 9.2 seconds.

    Factory Timed : 430 Scuderia
    0-60mph takes 3.5 seconds.
    0-100mph takes 7.7 seconds.

    Summary:
    For the Scuderia vs CS the 0-60mph time comes up 0.5 second quicker, and a lot of that is due to improved launch control software and more modern tires (*) with 0-100mph comes up 1.5 seconds quicker.

    -----
    That assumes a LOT...

    1. Perfect tires on both cars
    2. Best Weight options on both cars (*)
    3. Amount of fuel in the car, octane of fuel
    4. Weight of the driver
    5. Reaction time of the driver
    6. Rev point at which test is conducted (both cars are geared differently and have different torque profiles, so a rolling start is very difficult to compare)
    7. Best Servicing on both cars (plugs, coils, o2 sensors, cam timing)
    8. Perfectly bedded in engine. Cars over 25k generate more power than low mileage examples.
    9. Any degradation due to aftermarket mods (yes, if not done correctly you can loose power, particularly torque, etc. at points in the rev range)
    10. Self learning. If its retarded timing due to old fuel, it may not make power its supposed to.
    11. Engine temperatures.
    12. Launch control or not.
    13. Tires (old vs latest tech like Michelin Pilot 4S or Cup 2's)...
    14. Different specs for different geo's so imports with lexan side windows, no stereo, etc. could be very much lighter..
    15. Setup of the ride height and geo makes a big difference to performance too.
    etc.

    ... you could literally go on...

    How much of that lot can eat into that 1.5 seconds gain to 100mph to the point that it makes it insignificant... yes. See. The answer most certainly isn't that the Scuderia is faster. It has the potential to be quicker but not every car is equal by a long stretch....
     
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  11. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    Its often miss quoted but I've debunked this myth many times. For starters the Enzo rims are Central locking nut with a different diameter central hub so they technically wouldn't get even close to fitting the 5-studs on the 360 as central nut hubs are wider diameter on all applications.

    Lets just say they where 'derived' from the Enzo brakes but they are not the same and don't share any part numbers. They actually come from the F430 CCMs.
     
  12. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    so 5 tenths from 0-60 qualifies as "just a bit" quicker? smh...

    sorry, i lived the speed in real-life driving situations. the cs gets obliterated every time, mods, no mods, tires, no tires, f1 driver, not f1 driver, old fuel, new fuel, stereo, no stereo, it's toast period.

    the cs is a great car, but lets cut the horsesh*t already and stop making it into something it's not.


     
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  13. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    #213 360trev, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    ... Then perhaps your driving the wrong models or even brand. My tuned Mclaren may obliterate both the Scud, CS, 458 and 488 yet I don't really care, it's in the low 2 second range to 60 but I don't really care and never really ever even launch it so aggressively, if ever. So what? A 4wd car will always pull out harder off the line tio but your get nothing for nothing... No thanks.

    Look, always someone who's a better driver or in a faster car or with more cash to spend. Sound familiar? I personally think the Sound on modern cars is so poor due to the turbos and tightening legislation too that even with a top line Akrapovic titanium system I have fitted, it just isn't that exciting doing it. Just like taking off in a jet isn't fun. Feels just like a fast everyday car, not a visceral, intoxicating, exiting one you get from these older models...

    So its not just numbers, it's the whole experience. The CS isnt as slow as you'd like to project. It's fast enough to be fun and it's experience is race car for the road, especially that sound it emits which simply couldn't be matched by 4 valves per cylinder of the Scuderia, as good as it sounds vs modern cars that replaced it.
     
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  14. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    The CS came to market before the 430.
     
  15. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    So whatever car is faster is better? Talk about horsesh*t. You should buy a Corvette.
     
  16. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    It did but it was produced at the factory just prior to the change over of the production line to make the F430. As such there was an opportunity for them to use some of the newer F430 parts on the CS. So you got the brakes and even stuff like the revised interior all ball vents...Yes they are different style and from the F430 on a CS :)
     
  17. SlowScud

    SlowScud Karting

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    This debate reminds me of 964 vs 993, 997 vs 991 in the porsche circles. For some reason we all think at the end we will all agree on a final ranking.

    Early models of anything (usually) have less performance / electronics / refinement. Some call that “inferior” some call it “soul”. Its big continuum and we all like to be at a different point on the spectrum.

    Chris Harris is a Scud guy I guess. Means nothing if you are a CS person.

    The real source of all of these debates is collectibility hopes. If a law is passed tomorrow that says used car sales are illegal so the value of your car goes to zero which one do you want to be stuck with? Buy that one and drive it as much as possible.
     
  18. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Collectibility is 50% of the equation for me. I love the collectibility and debating the market. I don’t like to buy things that are worth less the day after I buy.

    If anyone can have it...... I don’t want it.
     
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  19. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Did I say that? Nope, as always, you like to add your own spin to justify your own opinions. I just said from a performance perspective, it's pretty night and day between the CS and Scud...I made no mention of one being better than the other, in fact, I said the CS is a great car and it doesn't need all this horsesh*t delusions to justify its greatness.

    So go troll someone else, thanks.
     
  20. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    The Scud is 5 years newer than the CS. Of course it’s faster. Disagreeing with your posts is not trolling. This is the Internet. Not everyone is going to agree with you.
     
  21. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Again, not the point (you're really good at this).

    To repeat myself as simply as I can: Another fchatter said there is a minimal/negligible performance gap between Scud and CS, and I countered saying it's far from negligible. By his own admission of what he refers to as "science" the CS is nowhere near the scud. Then sh*t the fan with you two, suddenly corvettes and mclarens came into the picture...lmao.

    I ask again, "Is a 0.5s in straight line speed from 0-60 considered "just a bit quicker"?

    I'll let everyone to formulate their own conclusions.
     
  22. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I don’t think anyone cares as much as you that the 5 year newer car is quicker. A used CS costs more than a used Scud. Performance isn’t the reason.
     
  23. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    Again, adding words to my mouth. Did I say I cared alot about this? NOPE, but I do care when someone spreads misinformation and I simply rebutted/clarified/called it out. So cut the horsesh*t and stop making the car out into something it's not; it's a great car no one needs to make stuff up.

    And there are those who will say the exact opposite of what you just said. Also again, not the point...but FYI, the cost of a prime CS specimen overlaps/crosses over the cost of prime Scud specimen...not talking highest ever asking prices, talking actual median sale prices.

    Toodles.
     
  24. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Lots of Scuds for sale. not many CSs for sale. It’s just supply and demand. There are a lot fewer CSs in the world than Scuds.

    I love Scuds. It’s probably my next purchase. I never selling the CS. I’ll leave it to my son.
     
  25. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    I want a 288 or an F40. I’d take one over a comparably priced late model exotic.
     

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