Changes at Boeing

Bob Parks · Nov 22, 2019

Gator said: ↑

Bob, I like to read all of your inputs but I feel compelled to take exceptions to “Douglas disease,” “Douglas crap,” “Douglas gang” when really it was McDonnell or in all actuality General Electric (Stonecipher, McNerney). Granted, I come from the Missile and Space side of Douglas, but I would bet that there is not really a difference in the engineering side between Boeing or Douglas back in the ‘60s. In So. Cal., as programs changed, engineers would rotate between North American, Lockheed, Northrop and Douglas and during that time...engineers were engineers. Like Boeing, Douglas was an engineering company. Design Engineers were not just in the office but on the floor and at our major subcontractors making sure, along with inspectors, that the product would be per spec. When McDonnell took over, philosophy changed somewhat. Even when we became McDonnell Douglas, it was still an engineering company. That all changed with Stonecipher. All of a sudden, MBAs took over.

In the mid ‘90s, Boeing wanted to diversify. Boeing had cash flow, but little profit on airplanes, and bought North American Rockwell for satellites and merged with McDonnell Douglas for military aircraft, missiles and launch vehicles. Like you, I thought Mulally would take over but I assume that the Board probably thought he was to specialized. Also like you, we were surprised that corporate offices moved to Chicago. Word was Chicago was more centrally located to all of Boeing divisions. I think there was another reason for the move and also for another assembly plant in the U.S. What we couldn’t understand was just when Airbus was on the ropes when they had A380 problems and airlines were starting to jump to Boeing, the two major unions decided to strike. One of your earlier write ups inspired me look up why and I found there was a faction in Seattle that takes credit in organizing engineering.

in general, the new management philosophy at Boeing was, “if you were a manager, you could manage anything.” As a result of all of these changes, the 787 startup, and now it seems the 737 MAX, were disastrous. All of the Standard Practices Boeing used previously were thrown out the window. We, Boeing, finally figured out the only people that care about Boeing business model,are...Boeing people, not suppliers. On the 787 Program, from what I have read, Boeing finally put engineers back out in the field at suppliers, etc. The 787 has been successful so far.
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Gator, please accept my apology for offending you. I guess my anger and frustrations from 20 years ago are still too fresh and a late night dissertation oiled up with a bit of scotch isn't the way to do it. I did work with some fine engineers from Douglas, one of whom reached the rank of a Boeing VP. My experiences were not a general broad brush assessment of Douglas personnel but came from the constant road blocks and in some cases arrogant attitudes from upper level , "Okay, clowns, we're here now." My view was from my group experiences. I'm not the only one who harbors a resentment to the change in attitude and atmosphere that took hold and we could see that it was on a down hill slide . I shouldn't have lumped Douglas people with Stonecipher and McNerney, so I apologize for that, too. Why the board put those two in charge of an airplane company stuff is beyond me. Why they let Mulally go is another one. I'm not knowledgeable in the political machinations of those on mahogany row and I'm not much on the big views, I'm an airplane guy and probably too naive in strategies but I worked too many years for the finest in the business and spent too many hours at the kite factory building things that made it the standard of the world. It ain't easy to see it slide into a floundering, confused, and seemingly rudderless corporation that is being controlled by people more interested in the books and workarounds than building a good product. The 737 Max is a result of good engineering but the lack of taught organization in the support of it negates the engineering.
Again, I'm sorry to have offended you . I'll have to check my Irish temper at the door.

Gator · Nov 22, 2019

Pretty much says it all.

Texas Forever · Nov 22, 2019

Gentlemen, what you're seeing is the MBA disease of American businesses. Starting around the turn of the last century through say the mid-fifties, American businesses excelled at making things. We were the best in the world, period. Then the boy wonders got their big main frame computers and we started on the slippery slope of cutting costs instead of making the very best we could make. What you see today is the end game of taking our eye off the ball. MBAs and cost accountants have killed American businesses.

Gatorrari · Nov 22, 2019

This article has already been posted in the "Changes at Boeing" thread and has been commented on over there.

Gator · Nov 22, 2019

Bob Parks said: ↑

Gator, please accept my apology for offending you. I guess my anger and frustrations from 20 years ago are still too fresh and a late night dissertation oiled up with a bit of scotch isn't the way to do it. I did work with some fine engineers from Douglas, one of whom reached the rank of a Boeing VP. My experiences were not a general broad brush assessment of Douglas personnel but came from the constant road blocks and in some cases arrogant attitudes from upper level , "Okay, clowns, we're here now." My view was from my group experiences. I'm not the only one who harbors a resentment to the change in attitude and atmosphere that took hold and we could see that it was on a down hill slide . I shouldn't have lumped Douglas people with Stonecipher and McNerney, so I apologize for that, too. Why the board put those two in charge of an airplane company stuff is beyond me. Why they let Mulally go is another one. I'm not knowledgeable in the political machinations of those on mahogany row and I'm not much on the big views, I'm an airplane guy and probably too naive in strategies but I worked too many years for the finest in the business and spent too many hours at the kite factory building things that made it the standard of the world. It ain't easy to see it slide into a floundering, confused, and seemingly rudderless corporation that is being controlled by people more interested in the books and workarounds than building a good product. The 737 Max is a result of good engineering but the lack of taught organization in the support of it negates the engineering.
Again, I'm sorry to have offended you . I'll have to check my Irish temper at the door.
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Bob, no problem. The Douglas side underwent the same problems as Boeing with bring in non-aircraft/space management. Boeing has just paid a higher price for the change. Most of the buildings where I worked in Huntington Beach have been leveled.

tazandjan · Nov 22, 2019

The program I work on, Phantom Express (Experimental Spaceplane to DARPA), moved from Huntington Beach to Titusville, FL this year. Many of the engineers refused to leave, so new people will take over. Did not help the program too much except it will be closer to the initial test site.

Tcar · Nov 22, 2019

Gatorrari said: ↑

This article has already been posted in the "Changes at Boeing" thread and has been commented on over there.
Click to expand...

Ooops, sorry... missed it. Posted by you...

Bob Parks · Nov 23, 2019

Gator said: ↑

Bob, no problem. The Douglas side underwent the same problems as Boeing with bring in non-aircraft/space management. Boeing has just paid a higher price for the change. Most of the buildings where I worked in Huntington Beach have been leveled.
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Thanks, Gator. You mentioned the buildings being leveled and that brings the same emotions that I have when I see the buildings in which I worked in 1950 also gone. Certainly Renton is still going strong and the Everett site is humming but old ad building in Seattle should have its proper occupants in it. In the 50's and 60's one could never guess when upper level officers would appear on the ramp or production line chatting with the greasy fingered help. I chatted with Bill Allen several times, Malcom Stamper would show up on the 747 line at times , and certainly, Allan Mulally was popping up at any place at any time. This was critical in assuring the help that they were recognized for the good work that they were doing and it did energize the work force. There was a active line of communication from the top down and a good work ethic and loyal enthusiasm followed. Of course there was always bitching that the work force wasn't paid enough but they always put out good work. Throughout the population there was a sense of pride that their airplane was the winner. I think that one of the most prominent examples of the excellence of the company during the 707 period was the AOG crew's work. They weren't just a bunch of great mechanics. The operation was conceived and directed from the top level and involved every discipline that one could think of. The planning was in place and execution of it was immediate when the first message was received . Preselected crews were airborne in a matter of hours and prepacked repair tool kits followed them. Field engineers determined what parts were needed and assemblies and sub assemblies, some pulled off the assembly line, were shipped by air to the site. We couldn't believe that some of the airplanes could be repaired but the AOG guys got them airborne in 30-31 days. Hand built wooden jigs, piano wire, and transits aligned the carcasses and they were rebuilt in the field . It was something that will never be seen again. It's late again and I'm rambling but not shooting tonight.

Rifledriver · Nov 23, 2019

Texas Forever said: ↑

Gentlemen, what you're seeing is the MBA disease of American businesses. Starting around the turn of the last century through say the mid-fifties, American businesses excelled at making things. We were the best in the world, period. Then the boy wonders got their big main frame computers and we started on the slippery slope of cutting costs instead of making the very best we could make. What you see today is the end game of taking our eye off the ball. MBAs and cost accountants have killed American businesses.
Click to expand...

Amen.

BMW.SauberF1Team · Nov 23, 2019

Texas Forever said: ↑

Gentlemen, what you're seeing is the MBA disease of American businesses. Starting around the turn of the last century through say the mid-fifties, American businesses excelled at making things. We were the best in the world, period. Then the boy wonders got their big main frame computers and we started on the slippery slope of cutting costs instead of making the very best we could make. What you see today is the end game of taking our eye off the ball. MBAs and cost accountants have killed American businesses.
Click to expand...

Too bad they are taking over healthcare and it will only get worse. Higher costs and lower quality care. I see it all the time now with PE/VC funding and buyouts.

Stuff that requires high reliability and performance like those two industries will be very bad in the longrun.

Texas Forever · Nov 23, 2019

Perhaps we need to update Shakespeare - First, we need to kill all the MBAs.

Bob Parks · Nov 23, 2019

Bob Parks said: ↑

Thanks, Gator. You mentioned the buildings being leveled and that brings the same emotions that I have when I see the buildings in which I worked in 1950 also gone. Certainly Renton is still going strong and the Everett site is humming but old ad building in Seattle should have its proper occupants in it. In the 50's and 60's one could never guess when upper level officers would appear on the ramp or production line chatting with the greasy fingered help. I chatted with Bill Allen several times, Malcom Stamper would show up on the 747 line at times , and certainly, Allan Mulally was popping up at any place at any time. This was critical in assuring the help that they were recognized for the good work that they were doing and it did energize the work force. There was a active line of communication from the top down and a good work ethic and loyal enthusiasm followed. Of course there was always bitching that the work force wasn't paid enough but they always put out good work. Throughout the population there was a sense of pride that their airplane was the winner. I think that one of the most prominent examples of the excellence of the company during the 707 period was the AOG crew's work. They weren't just a bunch of great mechanics. The operation was conceived and directed from the top level and involved every discipline that one could think of. The planning was in place and execution of it was immediate when the first message was received . Preselected crews were airborne in a matter of hours and prepacked repair tool kits followed them. Field engineers determined what parts were needed and assemblies and sub assemblies, some pulled off the assembly line, were shipped by air to the site. We couldn't believe that some of the airplanes could be repaired but the AOG guys got them airborne in 30-31 days. Hand built wooden jigs, piano wire, and transits aligned the carcasses and they were rebuilt in the field . It was something that will never be seen again. It's late again and I'm rambling but not shooting tonight.
Click to expand...

Some of my younger friends have asked why so many crashes or accidents at that time. The big tin jets were being flown in most cases by older prop plane drivers and the vast differences in flying and operational procedures sometimes weren't followed. There were short landings, long landings, and improper maintenance procedures that precipitated many incidents. The jets at that time were big profit makers and it was worth the effort to fix them and the Boeing Company made sure that the customer got full support. I'm going to try to get some pictures of several of them before repair to illustrate the degree of damage that was simply unbelievable to be fixed in 30 days or less.

Texas Forever · Nov 23, 2019

Lately, I have been flying a lot from IAH to SFO. There's a 777 that takes off at 7:30 am from IAH to SFO. It then flies to EWR. From there to DEN and SFO, then back to DEN, back to SFO, and then IAH at 5:30 am. Damn plane must stay 19 hours a day in the sky. Unbelievable. So how did we get from a 777 that stays in the air almost 24/7 to where we are today? What happened? Did we forget how to build planes?

Innovativethinker · Nov 23, 2019

Texas Forever said: ↑

Gentlemen, what you're seeing is the MBA disease of American businesses. Starting around the turn of the last century through say the mid-fifties, American businesses excelled at making things. We were the best in the world, period. Then the boy wonders got their big main frame computers and we started on the slippery slope of cutting costs instead of making the very best we could make. What you see today is the end game of taking our eye off the ball. MBAs and cost accountants have killed American businesses.
Click to expand...

In so many business sectors.

“kids with MBAs” is the buzzword that I’m familiar with.

I had to deal with one that replaced a high level person I dealt with at US Bank.

He blew it then tried to lie to me about it. Mistakes happen, lies are relationship ending.

I told him “before you say another word hang up and call Minneapolis and tell them your dealing with me”. He did, then called back and apologized.

He simply did not understand that lying was not OK.

Me, and $200mil left US Bank after a 25 year relationship.

tazandjan · Nov 23, 2019

Well, I have a chemistry degree and an MBA, and work as a systems engineer, so maybe killing all of them is a bit drastic. Now lawyers, on the other hand...

500drvr · Dec 13, 2019

max930 said: ↑

Boeing is in serious trouble, they can play musical chairs all they like. It wont stop the multi-billion dollar lawsuits they face.
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Bring back McDonnell Douglas

I still drive by the old plant in Long Beach now and then and brings back fond memories.

tazandjan · Dec 13, 2019

When Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, the merger was allowed because the fair trade folks said the management was so bad at Mc-D that they doubted the company could survive on its own.

Tcar · Dec 13, 2019

500drvr said: ↑

Bring back McDonnell Douglas

I still drive by the old plant in Long Beach now and then and brings back fond memories.
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That's actually the Douglas Plant.... bring them back... not MD...

Became MD plant after the 'merger'. MD was a mess... terrible company, thanks to McDonnell.

500drvr · Dec 13, 2019

Tcar said: ↑

That's actually the Douglas Plant.... bring them back... not MD...

Became MD plant after the 'merger'. MD was a mess... terrible company, thanks to McDonnell.
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True...

Their planes were so much better engineered.Over engineered actually making them heavy and more expensive to build. Even the MD designed DC-10/ MD-11 were built like tanks. FedEx still flies them and had many on order until Boeing decided to stop making them. McDonnell Douglass designed and built the C17 until 1995 when Boeing bought them.

500drvr · Dec 13, 2019

tazandjan said: ↑

When Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas, the merger was allowed because the fair trade folks said the management was so bad at Mc-D that they doubted the company could survive on its own.
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That’s correct. The ValueJet crash into the Everglades in 1996 pretty much sealed their fate when their order for 90 MD 80’s was cancelled as a result. MD was hopeful that order would keep them afloat.

500drvr · Dec 13, 2019

Correction...Boeing bought MD in 1997.

jcurry · Dec 13, 2019

Yet some of Boeing's greatest aircraft are M, D, or MD

Jeff Kennedy · Dec 18, 2019

500drvr said: ↑

True...

Their planes were so much better engineered.Over engineered actually making them heavy and more expensive to build. Even the MD designed DC-10/ MD-11 were built like tanks. FedEx still flies them and had many on order until Boeing decided to stop making them. McDonnell Douglass designed and built the C17 until 1995 when Boeing bought them.
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A friend who worked at HQ staff before becoming an International salesman for the airline side in Long Beach talked of how there was a design ready to make the DC-10 into a shortened 2 engine competitor to the Airbus A-310. The reason it was killed was that the company decided that the C-17 was low risk since it came with government funding demonstrating that the top leadership was totally risk adverse. The C-17 program ended up being a real problem for them even if it was government funded.

The Long Beach facility also suffered by being in the So Cal Air Resources Board area. I remember having a conversation with their paint shop manager about off load work. McD was glad for their airline customers to take their aircraft unpainted; actually wanted them to. McD had to do a forecast for the year on how many aircraft they would paint. But it was even worse, they had to declare specific dates. If they missed a time slot (but the same originally scheduled aircraft) they paid a fine.

500drvr · Dec 18, 2019

California was no help for them staying in business.

Tcar · Dec 18, 2019

500drvr said: ↑

California was no help for them staying in business.
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...or anyone else staying in business, for that matter...

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