HONDA PULL OUT OF F1, RED BULL QUITS & MANUFACTURERS QUESTION PARTICIPATION | Page 2 | FerrariChat

HONDA PULL OUT OF F1, RED BULL QUITS & MANUFACTURERS QUESTION PARTICIPATION

Discussion in 'F1' started by william, Dec 3, 2019.

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  1. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    4,186
    Cheshire
    I don’t think they can unilaterally do anything unless the FIA agrees and the FIA has determined, for now, that FE is electric and F1 will go carbon neutral via hybrid tech.

    Either way, I think the real deciders will be the fans. The manufacturers are flocking to FE because of the short term R&D benefit and for marketing purposes. But look at the FE spectacle and compare that to F1. Its garbage. I have been to FE. Never again. The dullest racing I have ever seen with pathetic slow golf carts ‘racing’ on tracks that are often narrower than Monaco. It’s just toilet to watch and as a racing fan it holds precisely zero interest for me. As long as that continues, F1 will remain the king of the pile.
     
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  2. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Agreed. I do so the makers focusing on FE for their commerical platform marketing and F1 remaining carbon. The question is simply going to come down to cost for all involved, certainly the makers/manufacturer's. Interesting below...............

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/147508/mercedes-in-f1-longterm-if-daimler-input-reduces

    Mercedes will be in Formula 1 "for the long-term" if it is able to reduce the contribution from parent company Daimler, according to team principal Toto Wolff.

    Earlier this year Mercedes' accounts, documenting its 2018 spend, revealed a net contribution from Daimler of less than £40m, with F1 prize money and sponsorship fronting the majority of its budget.

    Mercedes has shown no signs of wishing to withdraw from F1 after next season, despite speculation occasionally linking it with an exit from the world championship before the next set of regulations come in.

    Senior Daimler personnel were present for the season finale in Abu Dhabi last weekend, with board member Britta Seeger receiving the winning constructors' trophy on the podium.

    olff believes the value Mercedes gets from its all-conquering F1 programme, which has won the last six drivers' and constructors' titles, is a major factor in its chances to continue, but stopped short of saying there had been any assurances about the team's future.

    "I am the one that is responsible for the motor racing activities," said Wolff. "But I'm also the first one to acknowledge that times within the auto industry is changing and that all activities need to be looked at.

    "Formula 1 and motor racing generally is an activity that we believe is part of our core DNA. The first-ever Mercedes was a race car.

    "I think we need to become more efficient. We need to provide a solid business case.

    "We need to reduce the contribution from Daimler into our exercise, and if we're able to achieve that, then we're in Formula 1 for the long term."

    he Mercedes works F1 team was revived in 2010, 55 years after its initial entry, but it took until '12 for it to win again.

    Mercedes finished second in the constructors' championship in 2013 but its major step came one year later, as it nailed the switch to V6 turbo-hybrid engines and began a period of unprecedented domination.

    It has now won 12 titles and 93 races, scored more than 100 pole positions, and racked up almost 200 podiums since 2010.

    "F1 represents one of the best return on investments within the whole Daimler group," said Wolff. "We're generating more than a billion in return. And in the end, it's all about the brand.

    "I think what we're doing is great entertainment, but it's also technology.

    "It's the most efficient hybrid engines and giving the brand a sporting image.

    "Since we've started on our successful journey in 2014, we have been a part of shaping a different brand image of Mercedes.

    "Of course the road cars and the style and the technology are the most relevant part, but I think us winning Formula 1 grands prix has added our small contribution to change the way the brand is being perceived.

    "And this is why the board members are here, it is a positive exercise it's something that Daimler actually benefits from."
     
  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    You mean when Alpha Romeo was fighting Ferrari who was fighting Maserati who was fighting Lotus who was fighting Aston Martin with a few other marks along side? No manufactures in that bunch !?!! NOT.

    Set a budget of $100M max and $70M min and see what happens.
     
  4. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

    Nov 21, 2015
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    Lars!
    I don’t understand.
    So an f1 team owned by, for example, an energy drink company, is less about marketing than a car company?

    not me....more auto manufacturers is more interesting to me...the brand loyalty is more interesting between car brands pm than say Mountain Dew vs Viagra vs Tide.
    I would love to see a Porsche team in F1.
     
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  5. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #30 william, Dec 7, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
    I am with you there.
    Personally, I don't like too much teams owned by sponsors (like Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Haas, Racing Point).
    I prefer to see teams owned by car brands: Ferrari,Mercedes, McLaren, Renault, Toyota, BMW, etc ...
     
  6. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,482
    I like when manufacturers build their cars.

    When they buy an already exisiting team, put their stickers and sell it again when they get tired of it, there is not a huuuge difference between i.e. Mercedes or Renault and Red Bull.

    Of course I know that starting from scratch doesn´t make financial sense, specially when they know that they´ll have to quit sooner or later.
     
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  7. I'm 360 Canuck

    I'm 360 Canuck Formula 3

    Nov 21, 2015
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    Lars!
    Yes, I like the idea at least, that part of the reason for the racing is, pushing the development and testing of new automotive technology....although I know modern rules don’t allow for much of that.
     
  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    True that most manufacturers outsource their racing department rather than having it in-house these days.
    In the last decades, some teams had so many different owners that it's even becoming confusing.
    Ferrari, McLaren and Williams are the only teams that can claim continuity, something none of the others can do.
     
    I'm 360 Canuck likes this.
  9. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
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    There's no better way to fix those issues with EV's than to have manufacturers compete without cost or artificial technical limits. If Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda are spending 300 million a year on battery technology in a competitive environment, you can bet that we'll either have fill up times of a few seconds or batteries that last longer than anyone will want to sit in a car within 5 years.
     
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  10. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 22, 2004
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    If that were even close to feasible we’d know about it by now. I’m not sure what cost or technical limits you’re referring to unless you’re limiting battery development to just F1 teams. Battery technology is being developed by far more companies than just automobile manufacturers, and they still aren’t practical for long or even moderate distance travel.
     
  11. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, I am sure there are plenty of companies working on batteries, etc ...
    But it's really direct competition on the track that would accelarate the R&D , just like it has done over 100 years in the automotive world.
    Formula E isn't the good platform for that; it's far too restrictive.

    A cynic once say that to accelarate progress, you have to make war; witness the advance made in technology, communications, medical science, etc ... during a conflict.
    I will say that motor racing is the ideal environment to develop battery technology.
     
  12. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Racing depends on eyeballs. No eyeballs, no money, no racing.

    F1 is not...or should not be....about developing technology. It’s about speed, passion, emotion and risk. You want the excitement of technology development? FE is the place for you.
     
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  13. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Formula E hasn't made a case for itself when it comes to technology development.

    It started as a specs series, with all the teams running the same car: that's the opposite of technical development !!!!

    Formula E is far, far too restrictive, and avoids direct comparison with ICE formulas like F2 or F3 by running on selective street circuits.

    If the FIA wants to create/develop a proper electric formula in future, it has to forget FE completely.
     
  14. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps this is overly simplistic, but i would like to see F1 define a box into which a car must fit and more or less say "as long as the car fits inside this box, you are free to choose whatever means available to you to move the car around the circuit as quickly as you can."

    You'll see all sorts of innovation in ways we've never imagined and when the time is right for electric, it will just magically happen.

    Remember when F1 practices were interesting because you never knew who would show up with what?
     
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  15. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Adrian Thompson
    I think most people would love that, but the reality is that era passed nearly 40 years ago when ground effect was originally banned. IT would be really easy these days to design a car with so much grip that it would be completely undrivable. A human 'pilot' would pass out from the G forces. The same can be said about different areas of the car. We all bemoan 'spec' parts encroaching on the series, but we can't get more than 20 cars on the grid because it's simply too expensive. If everything was open we'd soon see today's budgets with the misty eye of nostalgia. 'Sniff, remember when Ferrari and Mercedes were only spending $500m a year, sigh, those were the good old days when F1 was affordable'
     
  16. Kiwi Nick

    Kiwi Nick Formula 3

    Jun 13, 2014
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    And you forgot that it will no longer be necessary to fly cars all around the globe since they can just as easily race on virtual courses. Imagine the increase in driver safety when all the drivers are shut up in a driver's capsules in a warehouse somewhere near Seven Oaks. I remember getting quite a sunburn at more than a few races, this could also reduce the incidence of skin cancer as a bonus. Without all that costly and time-consuming travel, the series could race every Sunday.
     
  17. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Adrian Thompson
    Respectfully I have to disagree. Look at how fast the industry is evolving. 100% pure EV's are already practical, bias and opinions aside, for the vast majority of people for the vast majority of their daily usage. No, I can't practically take my car six up with a trailer from Michigan to Florida in an EV yet. But in all honesty how many people do that ever, and even those that do, how often do they do it. Already today I could jump in a Tesla and drive from Detroit to Chicago non stop. If I was fully loaded in the mid of winter (cold) and trying to aver 100mph I could stop for a coffee / snack / meal at a Supercharging station and get an 80% charge in 30 mins. The biggest argument against EV's today are their cost, lack of availability on the used market (that's changing) and most of all mistrust and misunderstanding. Already the last five years have seen a quantum shift in the industry. Today large OEM's are falling over themselves to announce their new products withh 200, 300 hundred mile and more range.

    People keep bashing Formula E. Like it or loath it, it's come a long way since it launched in 2014. They deliberately put a tight lid on it to get it off the ground. Yes back then they had to change cars mid race. Power has risen from 190Kw to 250Kw. The cars now go the full race distance as well as accelerating considerably faster with a corresponding increase in top speed. Technology tends to have, if not exactly then closely, an exponential growth. How much power, what range and how fast do you think the cars will be by 2025 or 2030? The ACO and LeMans are already looking towards a zero emission future. Unfortunately F1 will have to follow.

    Don't let this post make you think I'm anti ICE, Anti F1 or pro FE, I'm not, it's just the facts as I see them.

    Personally I'm relishing Renault, Mercedes and Honda pulling out of F1. I'd love to see F1 implode. I don't see how this $175m budget cap will work. Instead if all the big boys pull out and there is no money F1 will have to reset and learn to live with small budgets. Honestly I'd rather see 24-30 cars on the grid powered by non manufacturer branded Cosworths, Mugens, Hearts, BRMs, Offy's etc. etc. running on $20, 30, 40M budgets. While I wouldnt' want to see spec cars, it's hard to argue that Indy car has far far better racing than F1.

    Thanks for letting me rant!
    Adrian
    Stuck firmly in the 80's heyday.
     
  18. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Wait until people start paying for replacement batteries. Wait until a disposal fee is imposed for old batteries. Wait until the true value proposition becomes clear. Then we can gauge true demand. Right now it’s early adopters and a few fleet users. Capacity already exceeds demand at this point and they’re still expanding. I think some of these manufacturers are in for a rude surprise. Deservedly. Hybrid, sure. Total electric? Generations from full acceptance.
     
  19. JJ

    JJ F1 World Champ
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    If I wanted to watch drivers compete in identical cars with legislated parity, I can already watch Indy or NASCAR or whatever. They are the NBA of motorsports, appealing to people with shorter attention spans.

    I watch F1 to see manufacturers with vast teams of engineers, strategists, mechanics, and a driver try to out-innovate, out-manoeuver, and out-execute each other. It is for people who want to see competition evolve over a decade. At least, it was...
     
  20. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    Without government subsidies the EV market will crash. And a full audit of the EV carbon footprint has yet to be done. EVs are great for Golf carts, city buses, local delivery vans, and commuter pods. They are not for people who see life as art.
     
  21. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Governments won't need to subsidise EV, they will simply legislate in their favour to eliminate ICE.
    This is what countries in the European Union intend to do, and I believe China will adopt that tactic too.
    First diesel vehicles will be banned from entering high density areas, then, year by year the CO2 level authorised will be decreased to finally ban ICE in town.
    This has already started in some towns as a pilot project, to the implemented further towards a total coverage by 2030.
    The users won't have any choice, but buying an EV if they still want to commute to cities, or if they live there.
    The Zero Carbon Emission is coming, that we like it or not.
     
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  22. Adrian Thompson

    Adrian Thompson Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Sorry. I didn’t mean to start a political debate about electric vehicles. I was just referencing the advances that have been made in just a few short years. The United States is not the rest of the world. At the end of the day the US market isn’t even the largest auto market in the world anymore, China is. What william said is correct, internal combustion engines will slowly be regulated out and it will reach a point where it is not worth making IC engines just for the North American market. I don’t think internal combustion engines will ever go away completely, they will just become the horses of the future. Toys for the wealthy. Additionally hydrogen is making advances as a power source which will still be used for electric vehicles. Also don’t forget that even “old “battery technology has proven far more reliable and long lasting than people thought. There are hundreds of thousands of 15 to 20-year-old Toyota Prii like running around still. Even at the end of life the battery packs can be recycled either replacing a few bad cells with other recycled good ones, or completely recycling material. Yes making batteries is a horrible dirty process today but it will become increasingly practical to recycle the material in old batteries to make new ones.
     
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  23. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    My 15 YO PRius is still on its original battery pack.

    ONe does NOT dispose of old batteries. Except for a few near microscopic defects (stinglers) the metals and plastics in the pattery remain useable. Old batteries are recycled into new batteries at 1/10 the cost of raw materials into new batteries.

    The value proposition is already clear, a mid-high-end EV ($60K) will out accelerate any no race car you can buy (0-60 in 2.5 seconds)! People like that. You can recharge while the car in in your garage. People like that. You get enough mileage out of a battery pack to do anything and everything you want to do today--except a long one way trip. People like that. Maintenance--what maintenance? People like that. Not paying gas taxes--people like that too.

    You sound like you want to continue selling buggy whips.
    Hybrids soot the 40% demographics in how their vehicles are used.
    The numbers are not going down from there.

    This from a person who loves ICEs.
     
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  24. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Not paying gas tax, yes! The law makers will change that faster than you can blink! They will come up with some kind of rip off tax, we all know that!
     
  25. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    I would not buy an EV as a daily driver until it has 250 mile range at 80 mph and than then be recharged completely within 30 minutes. I routinely drive 500 miles a day on cross-country travel.
     

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