360 - My pre-cat cataclysm: cut losses or double down? | FerrariChat

360 My pre-cat cataclysm: cut losses or double down?

Discussion in '360/430' started by basscase415, Dec 22, 2019.

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  1. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    I have a 40k-mile, red/tan, gated 360 Spider that is in very good condition in and out. Over the last two and a half years it provided me with 6k miles of general giddiness, but that came to an abrupt end last weekend after a likely pre-cat failure. The engine hasn't been scoped yet but top-end damage seems evident just from the noises it's making.

    I'm almost certainly going to be facing a huge repair estimate in the near future. The hard part will be determining where my break-even point is between paying to have the car fixed to the high standard I'd want, or just selling it as-is.

    Would anyone be able to point me to resources where I might get a rough idea of the car's current value? Any informed speculation as to the likely value-range of my car would also be welcome.

    I could provide additional details on the car itself but I assume what matters most is what I don't know yet (the specific damage).
     
  2. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    don't start the car no more. removal of header is the first thing you need to do. after that, u'd confirm if it is a precat failure. If it is, then u need to remove the heads. if not. then u find the noise elsewhere.
     
  3. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    33,710
    Texas/Colorado
    Full Name:
    George Pepper
    My pre-cats disintegrated before I bought the car. Heads need to come off, and if you're lucky, it's just a cleaning job. I was lucky. Still not cheap, but the car isn't totaled or anything.
     
  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    What noises is it making?
     
  5. gt1995

    gt1995 Formula Junior

    Sep 3, 2011
    491
    Rockville, MD
    I have a red, gates 360 spider with 48k miles. I just had the headers and cats replaced. No failure but apparently one of the precats has started to disintegrate and we caught it just in time. This was actually the second set of replacement headers on the car, as the first were replaced under warranty with ORM units.

    Without any engine clean out or repairs the job cost around $13k. The OEM main cats were replaced with high flow units and the headers were replaced with Tubi.

    Despite the listed values of these cars I would guess that mine would struggle to fetch $80k given the miles. And it has the rare carbon fiber sport seats, challenge front and rear grills, full paint protection film on the full front clip, and some other goodies. I’m not anywhere near selling it though. It is just too much fun!
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Heads off??? Really. The cart is so far ahead of the horse here I can't see it. I have seen a lot of precat failures that caused no engine damage, the vast majority in fact.

    Bore scope the spark plug holes first. If there was any debris intrusion it will be very obvious.

    If your mechanic advises taking the heads off make him prove the need.

    90% of the time precat failure is a long progressive process. They make noise a very long time before it is a serious failure. I am half deaf in one ear and hear it quite clearly at early stages.
     
  7. Tarek307

    Tarek307 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 26, 2018
    1,294
    Long Beach, CA & Alexandria,Egypt.
    Full Name:
    Tarek Salah
    Just had the cats and headers in mine changed, pre cats were failing but caught before any damage happened, thankfully i thought i heard ticking and took it in , they found headers had leak and cats were disintegrating at the edge . Just had to replace cats & headers.

    In your case, i'd say take it to a professional independent mechanic and have them assess the damage and advise you of best outcome..its still a manual trans so maybe worth fixing
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall

    Why on earth would you remove the header to prove precat damage?
     
  9. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    Just to clarify, the fellow from the (very-reputable) shop I take the car to is the one who suspects top-end damage (at minimum) based off of the sound. The car makes a regular clatter/rattle that I'd assume to be valves. There are misfire codes on all cylinders but #2, no other codes.

    The root cause isn't known yet but pre-cat failure was suggested as a likely culprit. The failure happened randomly an hour into a sedate drive. There was no over-rev and the belts/tensioners were done less than 3 years and 6k miles ago. It's only a couple months and a few hundred miles past its last annual service and inspection.

    The next step is to scope the plug holes.

    Looking back, the only potential pre-cat-related issue I've had in the past was a CEL for P0431 "Warm Up Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)" that lit twice over six months / 1500 miles. My shop had just swapped out all my O2 sensors to address this at my annual. Obviously if my culprit really turns out to be pre-cats I'll regret that this didn't get investigated more thoroughly. However every post I saw on FChat also pointed to sensors or cat ECUs as the most-likely culprit.
     
  10. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2005
    8,682
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    Brian gave you good advice and you are getting the scope in there correctly. You noted problems on all but cylinder #2. Precat failure to the point of causing damage on both banks at the same time???? I would not think that is a correct guess. The probability of both simultaneously failing without some other influencing factor has to be VERY low.
     
    carguyjohn350 and one4torque like this.
  11. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    That's what had me puzzled before the shop fellow had a listen. However I've read on here that if material has been ingested into cylinders it can spread across both banks.

    I'd love to be mistaken and for this all to be much ado about nothing-- in particular to hear of a more-benign explanation for an RPM-following regular metallic rattle. For now I'm just going off of what has been suggested.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Cat material large enough to cause noise doesn't make it into the cylinders. It stays in the cats. Fine debris is all that is able to be carried by reversion gasses.

    What you say doesn't make sense.
     
    carguyjohn350 and Need4Spd like this.
  13. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    Hearing that I'm not making sense is music to my ears, honestly. Although I'm not sure what else might be going on.

    Here is a video of the nasty noise at startup as we were prepping to load the car onto the tow trailer to the shop. I was wary of starting it at all, but my tech said he'd shut it down immediately if he thought additional damage might be done.

     
  14. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    May 20, 2018
    5,086
    Houston
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    One4torque
    Sounds like valve train——. Or if you are lucky water pump alternator tensioner.

    can run w out the belt to diagnose.


    Keep us posted
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Well, I don't know what to tell you at this point. While you did not ignore the CEL "low cat efficiency" errors, and changing the O2 sensors is not a bad thing (Ferraris eat O2 sensors for breakfast), on this model there are other causes having to do with the actual cat converters. Precats and main cats disintegration are both common. If it were those issues alone, it would already run $20,000 into repair cost to replace those with Ferrari new factory cats and headers. With the additional very scary noise, the proper repair can be double that. Unless you are willing to take a bath on this car, it would be sale-proof as it is. Your car is a spider and that is a ding against its value.

    It's time to fix it and either enjoy it again, or sell it after the proper repair (easier to selling good running car than a bad running car no matter the price). You need a good Ferrari mechanic. Fill in your location and maybe someone can give you a recommendation.
     
  16. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    May 20, 2018
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    Houston
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    One4torque
    Well don’t panic. There are several used 360 engines for sale 10-14k.

    would be a fun project if so inclined

    get w a good ind shop or capable mech buddy
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Recordings are pretty useless.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Don't drive it. Don't run it. Tow it to someone who knows what he is doing. That may not be who you are using now.

    One of the biggest problems with Ferrari chat is fear mongers here who are clueless prepare you for fleecing. I have been in this business for over 40 years and due to Ferrari Chat I have never seen so many people come through the door so ready to pay me for a giant bill when the problems are minor. Believe me, a great many shops are very happy to take advantage of that situation. People are getting screwed far more badly and far more often than the days before this dump existed. It used to be only stupid magazine writers spread that kind of crap. Now it is only limited by who has internet access.

    You are from California, you can't be bothered to tell us where. I was there for 58 years of my life and there are good guys and bad and someone here swears on a bible everyone of them is the best there is and a saint.
     
  19. LP360

    LP360 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 12, 2016
    169
    UK
    Full Name:
    Lee
    My car has got the exact same noise or very, very similar, mine as been sat 4 weeks and this noise started soon as I turned the key, before it ran sweet as a nut. However mine is euro car and no pre-cats or as far as I'm aware? I'm getting it towed after new year to get it diagnosed, I'm hoping it's nothing major

    Sent from my CLT-L09 using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  20. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    Sorry Brian I wasn’t trying to hold out on you. I’m in the SF Bay Area. I don’t want to disclose the shop only because I don’t want people criticizing their off-the-cuff diagnosis. I’ll wait to see the inspection results.
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    I don't want you to tell us. I lived in the East Bay most of my life and know everyone in the Bay Area very well.

    Like I said, there are good, bad and crooked and I have seen every last one described as a genius and a saint.
     
    imahorse and BOKE like this.
  22. LP360

    LP360 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 12, 2016
    169
    UK
    Full Name:
    Lee
  23. PFSEX

    PFSEX Formula Junior

    Jun 30, 2006
    843
    Las Vegas
    Full Name:
    John Ratto
    Brian - Rifledriver - knows his stuff and is very gracious to share info.

    That said - noise on start up seems to be common with these cars. Mine started making noise on start up about 2 years ago. I asked here and found others with same issue. They indicated no associated problems.

    I found noise stops after about 30 seconds and then doesn't come back until next cold start. I have never found any associated problems with this.
     
  24. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,661
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    That cold start up noise is normally a high pitch squealing sound made by the Secondary Air Pump as part of a emission compliance thing. It goes away in a minute as the pump is shut down. The sound that the video shows does not seem to be that high pitch noise.

    However, camera video and sound recording are not the most accurate reproduction so diagnosis based on recording is certainly not definitive. Stop driving and tow it to a good tech, that is very sound advice.
     
  25. basscase415

    basscase415 Karting

    Jun 10, 2017
    87
    CA
    No updates to report, but I’m not expecting to hear anything until end of the week at the earliest. The car is at the shop so I’m just waiting for the scoping findings.
     

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