355 Top Replacement (and power top repair) | Page 2 | FerrariChat

355 Top Replacement (and power top repair)

Discussion in '348/355' started by Boaf 32, Jan 1, 2020.

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  1. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #26 Boaf 32, Jan 13, 2020
    Well gents, I am at an impasse with my hydraulics. I am able to get both rams to engage the pins with a little persuasion. I have bled the system (2 in the pump area, one on the Primary ram, and I bled air out of the passenger Primary by moving the hose and cycling).

    The problem is the Ram's are original, and have been sitting for who knows how long before I got the car. Here are the issues performed without a canvas top:

    Passenger Primary and Secondary:
    The hydraulic does not pull up the engagement pin high enough for the forks to connect. It stops half way, and I have to persuade it. It just seems to die 1/2 way.
    The secondary seems OK.

    Drivers Primary and Secondary:
    The Primary's now go all the way up (when top goes up) and engages the pin (even though a bit bent). The issue is it will not go down. It just binds at the top and need a hammer and socket extension to move it down. Secondary seems OK.

    Lubed the heck out of it. I disconnected the Primary's and the top moves up and down nicely. I had to remove the pins for manual operation and put nuts on.

    So, for now put back in Manual mode. Will do some more trial and error after the top is on. My fear is that the top would get locked on the driver side in the up position and not able to pound it back down to drop the top.

    Picture 110050 is the passenger Primary disconnected
    Picture 110106 is the nut I had to put on to clear the Pin for Manual operation
    Picture 110228 is the driver side with the nut on the bent Pin.

    Top comes in 2 weeks and will begin that process.

    Boaf.

    Qavion, responses to your post:

    The 4 beeps were before I had the seats connected.

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  2. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #27 Boaf 32, Jan 13, 2020
    Well gents, I am at an impasse with my hydraulics. I am able to get both rams to engage the pins with a little persuasion. I have bled the system (2 in the pump area, one on the Primary ram, and I bled air out of the passenger Primary by moving the hose and cycling).

    The problem is the Ram's are original, and have been sitting for who knows how long before I got the car. Here are the issues performed without a canvas top:

    Passenger Primary and Secondary:
    The hydraulic does not pull up the engagement pin high enough for the forks to connect. It stops half way, and I have to persuade it. It just seems to die 1/2 way.
    The secondary seems OK.

    Drivers Primary and Secondary:
    The Primary's now go all the way up (when top goes up) and engages the pin (even though a bit bent). The issue is it will not go down. It just binds at the top and need a hammer and socket extension to move it down. Secondary seems OK.

    Lubed the heck out of it. I disconnected the Primary's and the top moves up and down nicely. I had to remove the pins for manual operation and put nuts on.

    So, for now put back in Manual mode. Will do some more trial and error after the top is on. My fear is that the top would get locked on the driver side in the up position and not able to pound it back down to drop the top.

    Picture 110050 is the passenger Primary disconnected
    Picture 110106 is the nut I had to put on to clear the Pin for Manual operation
    Picture 110228 is the driver side with the nut on the bent Pin.

    Top comes in 2 weeks and will begin that process.

    There is one question. I just saw this video () and noted that where the rams attach (the pistons fork), I always had the hole at the bottom when installing the Allen screw (hole furthest away from the piston) Attached is picture 112735. Question: Should the hole be at the bottom or the top?

    Boaf

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  3. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #28 Boaf 32, Jan 13, 2020
    Disregard, just an adjustment. Question: Should the hole be at the bottom or the top?

    Hopefully this can help diagnose my driver side hydraulic primary ram. If I need to connect it, I cannot pull the ram out at all to connect the fork. The passenger side Primary ram I can pull out the ram to meet the fork.

    How do I know which is the correct hydraulic function?
    Qavion, Sorry but can you help explain how to diagnose "Over Pressure or Under loading"? See my comments (and yours) above in Bold. Maybe that can help. I have a sneaky suspicion that the both Primaries have some issues.

    Boaf
     
  4. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #29 Qavion, Jan 13, 2020
    We might have to take a survey. Mine is at the bottom (see photo on previous page), but I don't know if it has been played with in the past by a P.O.

    Sorry, no idea. I was just throwing out ideas. If things were bending, then I thought it might be due to excessive pressures. There are so many unloading valves in that system with all kinds of pressure limits, I wouldn't know what to check first.

    Hydraulically, I don't know why you can move one side, but not the other. The two rams are connected hydraulically (kind of in series, rather than parallel).... see the hydraulic diagram... The hydraulic pump pressurises the right hand cylinder, which displaces fluid on the other side of the piston and this pushes on the left hand cylinder. I suppose if there is some air in the line between the right and left cylinders, you may be able to displace the right (passenger's on your car) cylinder a little before the fluid pressure builds up on the other side.

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    You may not be able to displace the left side (manually) because the secondary circuit solenoid valve is closed (and there is no return fluid path to the reservoir). Maybe part of your problem is that there is air in the line between the two cylinders (see purple line). Sorry, I'm well out of my depth when it comes to hydraulics.​
     
  5. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #30 Boaf 32, Jan 13, 2020
    Thanks, Myself also when it comes to Hydraulics for roofs. I did bleed all the air out (I believe). Not only through all the valves but also took off the lines and cycled the motor to blow out any residual air.

    I will try again once I get the top on. The important piece is I know the motor is functioning, re-wired everything and can focus on getting the new top on.

    Thanks.

    Boaf
     
  6. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #31 Boaf 32, Jan 13, 2020
    @FloridaF355 has a great bleep procedure I will try tomorrow. Hopefully that will solve my inconsistent hydraulics. According to the thread, you should not be able to move the hydraulics once the cylinder is full of fluid. Here is his thread.

    Will you let you know how it goes.

    Boaf
     
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  7. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    Sep 18, 2002
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    #32 tbakowsky, Jan 13, 2020
    The bolt hole goes to the bottom..
     
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  8. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
    716
    Fort Mill, SC
    Full Name:
    Matt
    #33 krazykarguy, Jan 14, 2020
    With the exception of the canvas replacement, I just went through this on our car.

    When I started working on it, the top elastics were destroyed (and each side had 5 zip ties 'shortening' them), and the top would only go to the halfway down position (just overhead). I fabricated and installed new 'snap-on' top elastics from the local craft store. We did not have any electrical/sensor issues.

    I started the bleeding sequence linked above, and the fluid was not in the gummy/sticky condition that the author described. The only part of the operation I was able to successfully perform was to essentially purge the fluid from the driver's side primary ram via the bleed nipple. Once I figured out (and convinced my dad/assistant) that the cylinder was 2-way and needed to be full of fluid at all times *and* allowed the cylinder to draw fresh fluid IN to itself via the bleed nipple did we start to make progress. Some of the instructions on that part of the DIY are a little muddled...

    Eventually, we were able to fully purge the air from the entire system with the emergency switch for the primaries, and then the console switch for the secondaries. Keep the reservoir well over the MAX mark during this process, too - it will save time by not having to refill the reservoir as frequently - it has precious little capacity. At this point, our car has fresh fluid AND is fully bled, and the top will power itself DOWN and UP every time.

    However, we are also in the camp of owners that have a bent top frame, as our passenger side fork misses the pin during the close sequence every time. I would wager a guess that the 'emergency top closing' procedure was botched at least once by failing to open the reservoir relief valve and using the ratchet/screw gizmo against a pressurized top. I think that the bend on the driver's side from this activity somehow influences the passenger side alignment. As our last remaining issue can be solved with a helping hand 'guiding' the fork onto the pin as it moves up (at just the right moment), we decided to call it 'good enough'. 97% (top goes up/down with power functionality - only the pin/fork issue remains) is a vast improvement over 10% (top calls it quits 1/3 down, would not go up under power).

    As info, and just regurgitating info from elsewhere, this hydraulic system if FAR from sealed. Do expect the ram seals to seep the brand new fluid as you cycle the rams to purge the air. In all honesty, I think it's best to exercise your Spider top every time you drive the car. My parents made the mistake of putting the top down in the spring and putting it back up in the fall, which was always an exercise in frustration.

    FWIW - this convertible top was 'rebuilt' (whatever that mean) by a Ferrari dealership in July 2014. The top was not working properly when my parents first took the car out in the spring of 2017. So - even the 'experts' struggle with keeping these things working properly...

    The 355 Spider top: A poorly executed idea to over-complicate something that worked fine on the 348, designed by Italians on a Chianti bender on a Friday afternoon.
     
  9. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #34 Boaf 32, Jan 14, 2020
    Thanks Krazykarguy. I will keep this in mind. I will follow-up. I also believe my frame may be bent, but going through the purge.

    Boaf
     
  10. krazykarguy

    krazykarguy Formula Junior

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Fort Mill, SC
    Full Name:
    Matt
    #35 krazykarguy, Jan 14, 2020
    I motion that all 355 top issues be referred to as this moving forward.
     
  11. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #36 Boaf 32, Jan 14, 2020
    All,

    Some positive news! Followed the procedures that @Florida355 for bleeding the system. Low and behold, we have hydraulics!!! Some pin alignment is needed (once the canvas is installed) but we go up, we go down, Yee haa!:)

    Not is all bells and roses yet. Just need to figure out why the rubber window trim is rubbing so much up against the door. So much so that it pulls the rubber bulls away. Never had that problem before, because the doors were always open in manual mode. Wish the doors could be open when operating the top.

    Thanks to everyone that guided me with the hydros. Next up, the cloth top!!! Pictures to follow.

    Cheers all.

    Boaf
     
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  12. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Sep 9, 2010
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    #37 WATSON, Jan 14, 2020
  13. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #38 Boaf 32, Jan 14, 2020
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  14. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #39 Boaf 32, Jan 21, 2020
    Hello all,

    Some updates for you.

    Photos of the gluing process and the new Straps for the mid bar. Purchased material from a fabric store and sewed it.

    Glue cycle 1:
    Gluing the end corners: Fairly easy and straight forward. Suggest before gluing, use a scratch awl to poke the hole in the fabric where the fastener goes, and leave it there while the glue cures. After it has cured, mark the holes with paper clips, you can find them easily when installing back on the frame. It is not easy to find the hole after the glue is cured, and who wants a bunch of pin holes in the top looking for the hole.

    Glue Cycle 2:
    One of the brain teasers was making sure that the window bar was installed correctly before gluing it. The first glue cycle has the bolts facing backwards and they go threw the fabric, and the fabric wraps over the top 1/2 way down the other side of the bolts. Nerve racking because other steps and fitment depend on this. Note
    Suggest only glue up to the end of the bolts. Have another glue cycle to finish the sides because of the angles and stretching of the fabric.

    Glue Cycle 3:
    My next step is to wrap the second fabric around the window bar. Hoping that should go well.

    Also replaced the second bar re tractors. Easy to do, get fabric, align with the old and sew.

    Tips:
    • Where disposable rubber gloves! Nobody likes eating suicide wings that get stuck to your fingers :).
    • Use minimum amounts of glues. If it starts squeezing out, it is impossible to get off the top. One technique is to apply fabric tape to the areas you are gluing.
    More to come.

    Boaf

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  15. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #40 Qavion, Jan 21, 2020
    Thanks for your instructions, but I'm afraid I'm totally lost with the glue cycles. I guess they will make more sense to those in the middle of the assembly process.

    The glue wasn't a contact type or does that still squeeze out?

    Just wondering how you figured out the length. The old elastic straps are probably stretched beyond recognition. Also, the elasticity of different (new) materials may be different. At least with your new elastic fabric, you can count the stripes. By the way, did you go for the most expensive roof fabric or the thinner type (which, apparently has good wear properties).
     
  16. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #41 Boaf 32, Jan 21, 2020
    Hi Qavion,

    To answer your questions:

    • By "Glue Cycles", I mean step by step. Glue this first, cure overnight. Glue this second, cure overnight.....
    • Glue squeezes out of a tube (I bought two (2) resealable tubes in case it hardens between cycles).
    • Straps, I used the originals as templates, but also measured the fully extended straps with the roof closed, and removed 2 inches. If it doesn't work, just sew 2 more, not a critical issue.

    Hope that helps.

    Boaf
     
  17. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #42 Boaf 32, Jan 21, 2020
    Answer your last question, not sure, but think it is thinner. I don't see an inner liner like the other but will place side by side.

    Boaf
     
  18. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #43 Qavion, Jan 21, 2020
    By "contact" type, I mean you put glue on both mating surfaces and wait a certain time period for the glue to go semi-hard and sticky. This should prevent or at least limit "squeezing out".

    I understand the concept of gluing cycles, but the details of the cycles I don't understand. For example:

    It sounds like part of the process is wrapping and gluing bolts. Without seeing the components sitting in front of me, I won't be able to understand things like why you are wrapping and gluing bolts. Does this include the thread portion? If so, how can the bolt thread be used? If this is too hard to explain without diagrams and photos, that's perfectly ok. I'll just wait until I have the pieces in front of me ;)

    Thanks,
    Cheers
     
  19. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
    US
    #44 Boaf 32, Jan 22, 2020
    Photos are above. Wrapping the metal bar that holds the top to the back of the car. The flat bar with the bolts welded on is visible in the "Tips" post above. You can see the bolts at the bottom in this diagram (32 is the corresponding nut).
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
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    #45 Boaf 32, Jan 23, 2020
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  21. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
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    #46 Boaf 32, Jan 24, 2020
    Gents,

    There is one tiny little tidbit. You can glue the window bar upside down in your top. Make sure you lay it on the car to see which side is the top. It matches the gutter rail on the rear deck lid.:eek:

    Boaf
     
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  22. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #47 WATSON, Jan 24, 2020
    Crap!

    FYI in my British car installs, I used two sided carpet tape on the front rail.
    This allowed me to tack down the top, close it completely and check for wrinkles...peel apart, reposition, repeat until square and wrinkel free.

    Love the work and updates man....keep going!
     
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  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #48 Qavion, Jan 24, 2020
    Did you find anything good for removing the old glue on the rails? Solvents? Heat? Plastic scrapers?
     
  24. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
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    #49 Boaf 32, Jan 25, 2020
    I like that idea. I will use that when I fit the front rail on!! Thanks Watson!
     
  25. Boaf 32

    Boaf 32 Formula Junior

    Aug 23, 2016
    390
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    #50 Boaf 32, Jan 25, 2020
    For removing the glue, I used 3M Adhesive Remover. My problem was the previous top had a ton of glue and the top ripped when taking it off. Heat gun and scraper for that part.

    Boaf
     
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