Antifreeze / Coolant Nerds - HELP

G-48 is a closer match to the factory fill (Glycoshell). The factory fill called for a NAP (nitrite, amine, phosphate). G-05 doesn't fit here.

Even if you look at Valvoline's own test data, G-48 OUTPERFORMS G-05 in the pump cavitation tests (10 v.s. 9) and they tie in general D2809 cavitation erosion ratings.

G-48 also lists mainly large diesel manufacturers as having approval against it so I'm not sure why it's declared the inferior choice? The only reason I've heard is that "It's what BMW uses and they aren't using wet liners". Well even if they aren't using wet liners, that doesn't necessarily mean they are incompatible.

 

That is not because of cavitation. That might be poor maintenance and crappy Ferrari low bidder part. Heat exchangers are a known trouble free technology for everyone else, yet ubiquitously fail in Ferraris just like sticky plastic interior parts with Ferrari solution to put in another new short lived part.

 

BTW - I shared some of my thoughts here on the subject - https://gransportmaserati.wordpress.com/2020/02/17/ferrari-f136-coolant-choices/

 

You are not wrong here. It is confusing. There are a few SAE articles on this situation. In one of my past posts is said something like "cavitation and other things casing cavitation". Cavitation we talk about here is liner not pump. Pump is a separate related issue. Diesels tend to cavitate hence all the additive packages. But there is more to cavitation. Cavitation is a complex issue. As an example the old 5.9 12 valve cummins diesel is a totally different beast to the modern post 2013 cummins diesel. The improved combustion 6.7 cummins 2013+ is using OAT not traditional HOAT's. Then we have Si-oat and P-hoat but no GOAT. That's why with oils and everything else the low hanging fruit course is to use what is spec'ed in your owner's manual.

 

That's fair. There isn't a lot of (publicly) published data. I guess my point goes back to Ferrari never asked for nitrites in their factory fills to fight liner erosion. All of the recommendations on the F136, Glycoshell (Ferrari), Agip Ecopermanent (Maserati) and Paraflu Up (Alfa) pushed for NAP-free formulations that most closely match G-48.

Is ASTM D7583 the spec we care more about? Neither Zerex product lists it. Can only find it mentioned with Glycoshell.

 

G48 works fine as long as you add SCAs to keep down liner erosion, which car owners do not do. Here is the quote from the spec sheet put out by Valvoline. Note cavitation erosion in liners, like FBB said, is not a pump issue.

Valvoline recommends following heavy duty engine manufacturers requirements for supplemental coolant additives.

 

Sorry, I disagree. I believe the 2-EHA takes the place of the nitrite or any other additive in older NOAT formulations.
Here's a interesting article on the transition.

http://editiondigital.net/publication/?i=470723&article_id=2993599&view=articleBrowser
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Additionally from one of the major diesel specs,
https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/Detroit%20Diesel%20Coolants.pdf
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There are two basic ways to keep cavitation at bay for the life of the coolant for our Ferraris: nitrites, which have a relatively short life and the coolant needs to be changed frequently, and OATs, which have no nitrites and are severely degraded by mixing with coolants with nitrites. G48's additive package is compatible with most other coolant types, which means it is not a pure OAT coolant and the additive package breaks down fairly quickly. So I stick to the basics, either a simple G05 with nitrites and frequent changes or an ELC OAT coolant that will last much longer and the additives last the life of the coolant, ~5 years. G48 works for some heavy duty truck applications because SCAs are added at regular intervals to keep up the liner erosion and other corrosion protection, not something Ferrari owners are going to do.

 

Just to re-iterate what I'm saying-- the 2-EHA (e.g. a common carboxylic acid) is the liner protection additive in these, and the Recommended factory fill. Ferrari never asked for Nitrites so I'm wondering why we are suggesting switching to them. There's documented issues with the brazing fluxes on aluminum parts with the nitrites.

NOAT's are the ones that need constant maintenance to replenish. The nitrites are quickly depleted and I don't think any owners are maintaining those levels either (maybe that's why you're suggesting frequent changes)? This isn't a problem with the (H)OAT's.

I suggest to have a look at the first article I provided, it provides a lot of interesting info from the various coolant manufacturers.

 

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All I know is that I have used this crap or equivalent in my 308 for 35 years with no problems. Not changing every two years either.

 

FYI, it seems even Ferrari is now suggesting G48 as a Glycoshell replacement for at least the F430 (shared by another member https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/refilling-coolant-f430.615152/).
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Use whatever you want. Not my car.

 

Geeeze [emoji2962][emoji2962][emoji2962][emoji2962],
I guess I'll stick to Z-G05, I was also told Prestone Dexcool concentrate can be used.

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Please do not use dezcool ..not even an option for our cars

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i’m turbo bumping this thread but yes it is.

 

Jimmy- As far as I can tell looking at the spec sheets, no additives for cavitation erosion protection needed in either diesels or Ferrari wet liner engines. So, no it is not.

 

As Terry said doesn't appear to be made to prevent cavatation and besides it becomes like jelly when mixed with some of the other antifreezes that may have been used. No matter how good you drain you will have old stuff in there

So i an going back to my post a few back, please don't use this or even suggest that others use

Let the GM cars continue to be the ones using it ..like a C5 vette

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Dominick- Note also it is recommended to change it every 2 years if used in a car not originally designed for it. Not a good Ferrari choice.

 

glycoshell has always been a semi-universal coolant. it transitioned over from a NAP-free borated HOAT (commonly associated with G48) to a pure OAT because of the millions of VW group vehicles on european roads. naturally this also covers ford with havoline xlc (dexcool) and gm with g34.

agip ecopermanent, dexcool, paraflu UP and the entire basf g30 family are all functionally identical

anyways glycoshell never had nitrites at any stage. it was selected because it was what shell had to offer for antifreeze at the time. if you really need SCAs I would upgrade to Rotella ELC.


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Jimmy- The Rotella ELC will work fine, and they even have a nitrite free version for those who do not like nitrites.

 

ELC NF is very close to Dexcool. There is absolutely nothing that distinguishes dexcool from current ferrari factory fill.

Ferrari’s recommended coolant for the past 13 years is Kemetyl Carix Premium Long Life. It’s a generic OAT coolant with the same inhibitors as dexcool. ferrari factory fill has always been off brand stuff sold at gas stations.

If you want to upgrade from the G48 in your older Ferrari or the off brand dexcool in your newer one, go buy the new Volvo (G64) or VW G12 EVO (G65) PSi-OAT. They are drop-in replacements, Volvo is blue-green and the VW is pink

 

https://shellcarcareproducts.com/nl-nl/premium-engine-coolant-ready-to-use-delisted-2022-161/

this is shell’s replacement for classic glycoshell blue. unlike BASF G48 it uses a very outdated benzoate inhibitor. retired this year

 

Bump from the dead!

Does anyone have an opinion on using Rotella ELC NF in the F430?

 

Of the long list of Ferraris known to have liner pitting problems 308 was never one of them. A high compression version was never made.
I have taken more 308/328 engines apart probably than all others combined and have yet to see a single cavitation pit in one.
Every single V8 made since has had higher and higher compression which seems to be one of the triggers for cavitation at the liners.