2020 Barcelona Testng: Feb. 19th - 21st & Feb. 26th - 28th | Page 9 | FerrariChat

2020 Barcelona Testng: Feb. 19th - 21st & Feb. 26th - 28th

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Feb 6, 2020.

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  1. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
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    Yep, probably do 358kph on the front straight at Melbourne
     
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  2. sp1der

    sp1der F1 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2009
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    You missed the point the change in attitude of the tyre is the change in aero not the tyre itself, just like blown wheels were eventually deemed illegal
     
  3. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    What next the helmet ?? It moves as well and can be shaped. If Ferrari had this it would not be an issue here. I see temp and wear management more than aero as the function but the FIA might feel differently. Testing is not boring now lol :)
     
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  4. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/148351/why-the-fia-believes-mercedes-das-device-is-legal

    Mercedes' dual-axis steering turned heads at Barcelona on day two of Formula 1 testing. JONATHAN NOBLE explains why, so far, the team has the FIA's consent to use the system

    Formula 1's second day of pre-season testing has been dominated by intrigue surrounding the Mercedes 'Dual Axis Steering' (DAS) system.

    But while the clever trick of adjusting the toe angle of the front wheels through steering wheel movement left some questioning how it could be allowed, the FIA is comfortable the design is fully in compliance with the regulations.

    It is understood that Mercedes has been in detailed correspondence with motor racing's governing body about the idea for some time and has proceeded to feature it on its W11 only because the opinion of the FIA is that it is allowed, rather than risk a disqualification from the Australian Grand Prix.

    Autosport has learned that the central matter for the FIA is the grey area in the regulations between what are suspension components and what are steering parts of the car.

    The regulations are clear that suspension changes made when the car is in motion are not allowed.

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    "No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion," states Article 10.2.3 of F1's technical regulations.

    If in the FIA's view the changes made to the toe angle were altering the suspension of the car, the DAS would be outlawed, but instead its view is that the DAS is merely another way of 'steering' the front wheels.

    In terms of what is allowed in terms of steering, the rules are not as restrictive.

    Article 10.4.1 of the technical regulations states: "Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted."

    As the Mercedes system only adjusts the toe of the front wheels, it is fully in compliance.

    Moreover, nowhere in the regulations does it state that the wheels can only be turned on one axis - nor that the two front wheels must change angle at the same rate.

    That means that Mercedes changing the angle of the front wheels to alter the toe is allowed because there is no regulation that states it cannot be done.

    The only stipulation regarding such a DAS system is that it cannot be done through power-assisted means - as the power-steering of the car has to comply with a regulation that states: "No such system may carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to steer the car."

    The Mercedes steering system must also have have had to comply with crash tests.

    Rival teams are well aware that Mercedes has exploited an area in the rules that has not been tested in this way before - and has got a head start in designing, building and testing the system.

    Since its ultimate legality can only be proven by race stewards if there is a protest, the question is now if other teams begin work on their own solutions immediately, or wait for clarity in Melbourne with a potential challenge.

    At a time when all outfits are already juggling resources with the 2021 F1 revamp on the horizon, having to throw extra focus in to coming up with a DAS system will almost certainly be a major disruption for everyone that elects to create one.
     
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  5. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
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    Can’t see every driver doing this twice on every straight being safe, especially during a race. I think Mercedes should be allowed to race it for a couple GPs to keep them happy and then Fia should ban it
     
  6. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    Pedro Braga Soares
    Pirelli may be italian but if i'm not mistaken they are big share holders in mercedes benz!
     
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  7. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    Agree, seems like when they had to use a finger to use that duct straight to the rear wing...it's a bit messy...
     
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  8. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

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    Well, they tend to suck when they are fastest at testing...they'll probably suck too when they're slow, but let's keep some faith!!!
     
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  9. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    If Ferrari came up with this steering trick Mercedes would be protesting and the British media would be going on and on about how they are cheating. Big facts.

    That said I am looking forward to how the Brit media will try to spin how the Ferrari is somehow the best car this season like they do every year. Always good for a laugh.
     
  10. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    Not quite true. According to Motorsport.com article https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-mercedes-das-system-is-legal/4689414/ ,

    "Article 10.4.1 of the technical regulations states: "Any steering system which permits the re-alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted."

    With the Mercedes system only adjusting the toe of the front wheels, then that is fully in compliance."​

    That regulation was likely intended to prevent rear-wheel steering systems, where all 4 wheels would be re-aligned by the steering system. Of course, you can't prevent re-alignment of the two front wheels, because due to Ackerman angles etc. the toe settings vary at every point on the steering motion curve. This DAS system just seems to introduce additional toe setting changes in different scenarios not anticipated by the rules.

    Gordon
     
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  11. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I agree, the innovation is brilliant.

    But I simply can't see it being legal in the general spirit of the rules regardless if we view Toe angle as part of the suspension or steering...if the toe angle changes height by even a mm surely it'll be a movable aerodynamic device?
     
  12. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I'm looking at Ferrari with a bleak view at the moment. The pink Mercedes stands a good chance at beating them (with one of their drivers...) unfortunately. Our hopes are left with Red Bull I think.
     
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  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Yes, I´ve read that, but I can´t agree. The steering is for steer, not to alter the toe. Now if someone invents a Tripe Axle Steering to adjust the camber or the ride height they would have to declare it legal.

    Then it´s the can of worms of the aero. FIA had reasons to ban it, but decided otherwise. It´s the way it is.
     
  14. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    remember when people used to complain that the Haas looked too much like the prev year's Ferrari?

    those have gone quiet...hmmm

    as for this season, still early days. you dont honestly believe Ferrari is this slow do you?
     
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  15. Nortonious

    Nortonious Formula 3

    Sep 20, 2018
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    not yet. I do wish we had turned more laps, generated more data points. Did Seb sickness disrupt the test matrix?
     
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  16. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    I do not but the low lap count is troubling.
     
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  17. SPEEDCORE

    SPEEDCORE Four Time F1 World Champ

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  18. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    In a conventional system the toe already changes as the steering wheel is turned--and this is why cars run toe-out because in a turn one wants both tires running on different radii to track the turn best.

    So, with toe already (and necessarily) changing with steering wheel motion, changing 'static' toe with change of steering displacement seems to be legal. You cannot (easily) make a steering system where toe does not change with steering, nor can one make a wishbone system where camber and caster do not change with roll inclination. So, attempting to rule these features fixed-and-constant rule out the whole double wishbone suspensions we have today.

    Now, notice the very small change in the inner location of the steering arms, done right, this will not change the camber or caster of the upright and will only change toe by a dozen thou or so. Then notice that in the pushed out position the steering arms are parallel and there will be no binding force on the steering wheel when the tires have significant lateral load and a significantly displaces pneumatic trail at the contact patch.
     
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  19. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    #219 GordonC, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    Well... the can of worms is that the teams are ALL already altering ride height with steering angle, and have been doing so for the past year or two - as I understand it, when the steering wheel is turned, the geometry of the suspension is such that the front ride height lowers, bringing the front wing a bit closer to the ground and thus generating more downforce when needed (cornering). Straighten the steering wheel, and the ride height comes back up, for less downforce and less drag.

    I don't know who invented that system, but it was rapidly copied by everyone within a year (for some, it may have had to wait for their new car the year after the first team introduced it). Here's an early reference, a Motorsport.com article by Gary Anderson, Dec 24 2017, discussing this system, and the FIA proposed reaction. The illustration is of the Red Bull RB13 car, so maybe they were first to run the lower-ride-height-when-cornering system in 2017: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-steering-angle-clampdown-gary-anderson-990781/1384526/

    Here's another later analysis by Craig Scarborough on RaceFans.net from June 22, 2019, discussion the trick cornering ride height suspension from McLaren that "follows the practice adopted by rivals including Mercedes and Williams" (the article specifically mentions that Ferrari were among the first to increase the offset causing ride height changes when cornering in 2018 after the FIA tried to restrict it at the end of 2017): https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/22/analysis-mclaren-follow-2019s-trend-for-trick-suspension/
     
  20. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    The ride height issue illustrates what I'm trying to say.

    Yes, ride height can change when turning the steering wheel, but after some hassle, they limited the ammount of ride height that can change when steering.
    That means: FIA themselves admitted that steering is not a device to alter the ride height.

    Note also that the normal changes of toe and ride height are caused by the normal use of the steering wheel. This new thing works by using a device attached to the steering rack, but not when steering. Would it look so legal if it was actuated with a lever in the cockpit instead of with the steering wheel?

    I get that with a lenient interpretation of the rules is legal, but I just can't understand why they're so anal most of the time but suddenly admit things like these.
     
  21. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    #221 GordonC, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
    While the FIA tried to limit ride height changes with steering angle in Dec 2017 (a Charlie Whiting directive), it seems that they either rescinded, backed off, or otherwise abandoned that limiting in 2018, perhaps as being un-enforceable. Ferrari along with Mercedes, Williams, McLaren, pretty much everyone was getting greater than 5mm ride height change with steering angle for the last 1.5 years.

    You suggest this new DAS Mercedes system is using a device attached to the steering rack - I'd suggest that it may be the steering rack itself being moved. Do the rules state that the steering rack must be rigidly mounted to the chassis? There's a loophole right there, then. Kudos to Mercedes for identifying it. The loophole was right there for any of the teams to find.

    For all the guys whining about Mercedes cheating and the FIA boosting Mercedes - come on, grow up. ALL the teams are trying to innovate to the maximum limits of the regulations and to explore the gray areas, Ferrari included. What we SHOULD be whining about is why Ferrari can't come up with enough innovations pushing the boundaries to get ahead like this? Let's not forget who Mercedes' current Technical Director is - James Allison, who Ferrari released in 2016 after only 3 seasons. Let's not forget who Allison replaced at Mercedes - Aldo Costa, who was the protege of Rory Byrne at Ferrari, and who got shuffled aside by Ferrari after the 2010 fiasco of losing the title in the last race of the season. Costa left Ferrari in July 2011 by mutual consent, only to land at Mercedes and design the entire series of championship winning Mercedes of this hybrid era.

    Let's not forget who founded the Mercedes team and spent it's first 3 or 4 years setting it's direction and recruiting the best engineering talent (including Costa and others), and recruiting Schumacher out of retirement - Ross Brawn. Let's not forget that Ferrari (via Montezemolo) essentially pushed Schumacher out (into retirement after 2006) by hiring Kimi for 2007, then immediately pushed out Todt and Brawn. Brawn obviously wasn't finished with F1, signing with Honda a year later, turning around that team within 2 years (just as he did with Ferrari after joining for 1997), buying out that team and winning both titles with his own team in 2009, then creating this Mercedes juggernaut.

    Let's be brutally honest - Mercedes isn't cheating, bending rules, influencing the FIA, any more than any of the other teams, including Ferrari. What they're doing is simply a better job than Ferrari of designing, engineering, research, development, for almost a decade - and often using ex-Ferrari brain power. Ferrari is as much responsible for the run of success of Mercedes for the last 6 years as Mercedes is, if you want to consider the ex-Ferrari people that Ferrari fired, pushed out, let go, etc. that ended up at Mercedes.

    Ferrari shouldn't be protesting that Mercedes is cheating. Binotto shouldn't whine "That's illegal", he should be asking of himself and his team "why didn't WE think of that?" In the impromptu press conference today where Allison acknowledged the steering system and named it DAS, he also said "That's an obvious bit of innovation we're trying, but there's similar innovations from front to back on the car in plenty of other areas" (paraphrasing).

    Binotto and everyone at Ferrari should be wondering where their list of innovations front to back are, and if it's as long as Mercedes' list. If it's not, then WHY NOT?

    It's probably an unpopular opinion here ("probably"? I know it is!), but I believe that Ross Brawn, along with Todt and Byrne, are just as much responsible as (and probably even more responsible than) Michael Schumacher for Ferrari's run of success from 1999 through 2005. Sure, Schumacher was the best driver of his era (post-Senna), but without the genius of Brawn and Byrne he would not have had near the success he experienced in those years. Ferrari let Brawn and even Schumacher end up at Mercedes. Brawn built a new dream team at Mercedes, that has now beat the Ferrari dream team's success and is still winning. Who's the dream team at Ferrari now?

    I actually like Binotto, and think he has been doing a good job, if not a great job yet. Arrivabene was a disaster, and set the team back by years (see letting Allison go, etc.)
     
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  22. ktu

    ktu F1 Rookie

    May 30, 2012
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    Mercedes system is visible, you can't hide it from cameras. Even if the FIA keeps things confidential with teams, this was gonna get out. I see 20 Ferrari men blocking the view from cameras when working on the rear of the car near the suspension area. Who knows what design they are using or if the rear suspension exploits another loophole. If so did Ferrari consult with the FIA as well to get approval? Unlike Mercedes, there is no onboard camera feed on the rear suspension, so if they found a loophole, its easier to hide.
     
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  23. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Certainly 1 of the more interesting posts on Ferrari vs Mercedes. Im an F1 fan, then a Ferrari fan. I appreciate the excellence in both teams. One cannot ignore what you have stated above about all the former Ferrari personnel in Mercedes now. Astutue hiring by Mercedes and the results show it. Well said.

    Im looking forward to this season. I hope to see Ferrari winning. I hope to see good racing and innovation up and down the pit lane. Enjoy it. Consistent regulations should yield some interesting races for us to appreciate.
     
  24. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

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    I don’t know why everyone is throwing rocks at Mercedes. We should be throwing rocks at Ferrari to fail, as usual, to innovate. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The issue is not Merc or any other team. The issue is the hopeless management at Ferrari who are wasting the fabulous resources of the team and churning out average cars year after year.
     
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