Changes at Boeing | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Changes at Boeing

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Bob Parks, Oct 11, 2019.

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  1. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The late P-38s with maneuvering flaps could actually turn with just about anything. Problem was the initial roll rate was so slow they had a hard time getting into position to use that turn capability. The Germans used a split-S to escape from P-38s (the ones they saw), and the P-38 could not roll fast enough to keep up with that maneuver. Did not work on P-47s, which could out-roll anything, but the split-S was a forbidden maneuver in the P-47 flight manual because of altitude loss. They still used it, though. One thing the late P-38s could do is outclimb just about anything. Very useful in combat. Guys like Bong and McGuire also used differential throttles to add some excitement for their adversaries.
     
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  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Thanks, Taz.... really interesting....
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I had heard about the roll rate but not the flaps. No wonder so many of the high scoring guys in the Pacific were in 38's. Didn't know that about 47's either. Bong and McGuire knew how to use that airplane. Too bad about them both.
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    My dad told me the initial success with the Jap Zeros was they had flush rivets. Maybe car reaper chime in.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  5. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I never asked Blumer how he dispatched the Spitfire but he knew how to use his airplane and I'm sure it wasn't a bank and yank encounter. His five kills at Clastres were achieved by speed and climb ability.
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Im guessing the p38 had great armament too.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Howard Hughes always claimed they copied his H1 which used both butt jointed skin and flush rivets to make it slippery. The Zero didn't have a lot of power but it was a great airframe and as long as they had experienced pilots it was a very effective airplane. As I recall it had real altitude limitations so the B29 presented them some problems.

    If I remember correctly it was Bong who wrote off 4 airframes from over stressing them. I remember a story of him asking his crew chief how the plane was after a mission. He was surprised to learn it was ordered parted out because it had a big kink in the wing.
     
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  8. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Pilot friend of my uncle's said.... "Zero; imagine a Beech Bonanza with a 1,000 HP motor hung on the front...." Very light-weight plane... The armoring was certainly the same.
     
  9. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    Four cal. 50's and two 20mm cannons all grouped in a 3 1/2 foot diameter space. Few survived getting hit with this closely grouped mass of projectiles. Very effective at shooting up trains and armored columns.
     
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  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Armor? I think a Sopwith Camel had more armor.
     
  11. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Depends on how many coats of dope on the Camel.... ha...
     
  12. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    The Bell P-39, Curtiss P-40, P-47, P-51 were all flush riveted as were the B-25, B-26, and B-29 . The Zero's success came from its good aero design and extreme light weight. I was struck by the beauty of the Zero when I saw it for the first time and was also amazed at how delicate it was. You could depress the fuselage skins with your thumb. I didn't know much about aircraft materials then but now when I think back about it, the skin gage couldn't have been more than .032 and everything else about it was minimal. Not much in the cockpit. We didn't know it then but the Japanese had developed light weight aluminum alloys that were used in the spar chords and terminal fittings, similar and maybe the same as 7075 and 7078. It had about the same engine as an R1830 in weight and power and must have been great fun to fly.
     
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  13. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I forgot that the B-24 was also flush riveted
     
  14. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Another trick learned in WW-II that carried over to Korea, once they stopped painting camouflage on the fighters and left them bare aluminum, was that waxing the rivet indentations gave you a few extra knots of cruise and top speed and also improved fuel consumption. Took a really gung-ho crew chief because it was a lot of work, however.
     
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  15. Bob Parks

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    This is triggering some memories re Blumer that I haven't thought about in years. He loved strafing transport columns because of the effective firepower he had and he told me of a "little incident", in his words, where he made a big mistake one day when he strafed a column on a road between two ridges. The ridges were lined with flak guns and he was immediately in trouble, as he put it. The number 2 engine exploded and peeled up over the wing. Blumer pulled into a steep climb to get enough altitude to bail out, rolling at the same time. He got out and somehow missed the tail, or what was left of it, and landed in the woods. He said that he crawled for two days getting through the German lines and eventually reaching a British unit. They offered him a canteen cup of brandy that he drained in one gulp...his words. He went through five P-38's when he was in Europe, all either damaged from airplane debris or strafing debris. His return from Clastres drew sad head shaking from his crew chief when he pulled into the hardstand with both engines blowing white smoke and oil. He lived in a modest little house where uncharacteristically he had a fabulous collection of music boxes and juke boxes. He drove a restored 1913 Cadillac some times . He pulled out an old cigar box that was crammed with medals from the U.S., France, and Belgium, all high level. He had reports, photos, and articles about his service awards. His comment, " If I pawned all those medal things , they wouldn't be enough to buy me a cup of coffee." He didn't tell war stories, he was one.
     
  16. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Bob- The P-38 was at one time supposed to have 4 .50s and one 37 mm cannon, but the 37 mm not work out and had an inferior trajectory to the .50s and the eventual 20mm. They substituted the single 20 mm for the 37 mm and that had a high enough rate of fire and matching trajectory to really supplement the 4 50s.
     
  17. Bob Parks

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    Thanks, Tay. I made a typo in my statement that it had (2) 20mm's. I have seen the impact mayhem when (6) .50'***** at the point of convergence and it is awesome. I can't imagine what the P-38's fire did. I remember that Blumer mentioned flying through the debris of fighters that he dispatched. That would be at pretty close range. His description of his arrival at the Clastres fight was that type of firing. He was at the end of a long high power dive to reach the fight and when he got there and his peripheral vision picked up a FW190 coming from his left and he instinctively fired and destroyed it. He then pulled into a big loop going through the melee and shot another one down on the way up. He then decided to loop in and out of the fight, shooting down three more. Crazy story. Witnesses on the ground said that the sky was full of flaming airplanes. Over 75 airplanes going at it. One entire Geschwader (spl) and part of another wiped out ( 35 airplanes) with a loss of 7 P-38's, if I remember. A Luftwaffe survivor said that it was obvious that they were being handled by a group of experts. Digging this up from my ol' head so I may have some numbers wrong. Larry had a Student Prince at Thun Field as well as his P-38 and I flew with him a few times in his biplane. That's crazy, too. A WW2 P-38 Ace flying around in a 220hp antique. His P-38 was fixed up for Chuck Lyford to fly at Abottsford and when it was at Paine Field, Larry decided to fly it. After getting guided to the active, he took off to the north over the Sound and promptly rolled it. Larry passed at age 80 in Springfield, Oregon.
     
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  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    It was sure fun watching Lefty Gardner do demonstrations in his. He lived his later years in the same small town my shop is in.
     
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  19. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Another thing with the P-38.... no trajectory convergence with all the guns in the nose firing straight ahead.
     
  20. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    I remembered another of Blumer's strafing incidents when he returned from shooting up a train. Target fascination took over and he got a bit too low on his run and came back with 300 ft. of high tension wire and part of a pole trailing behind the airplane.
     
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  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    wonder what a p38 with Merlins would have been like.

    I thi k towards the end of the war they had the Allison’s sorted for altitude but then dropped it .

    Im guessing also the p38 with two engines was a lot more expensive than a thunderbolt or mustang.

    there was also a Brit plane kinda like a small mosquito that was supposed to be fantastic
     
  22. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
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    You're probably thinking of the DH Hornet. Didn't appear to be any better than the Mossy.
     
  23. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yeah the Hornet.
    There was alsoa Grunman Tigercat.
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Sean- Affirmative, the P-38 was much more expensive than the P-47 and P-51 and more expensive to maintain. The early ones had big cabin heat problems, too, and all of this combined caused the ETO to give up on them except the F-5 photo-recce versions. The F-5 was flown throughout the war and updated with all the latest P-38 mods.

    The PTO screamed for more P-38s throughout the war. Twin engines were handy for all that overwater flight and the P-38 armament vaporized the lightly armored Japanese aircraft.
     
  25. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    The Mosquito and Hornet were wooden planes... Hornet was slightly lighter than the Mosquito and a little faster..

    The Tigercat wasn't a WW2 plane; developed too late.
     

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