Changes at Boeing

I remember reading that thw Allisons also had oil lines freezing or somehting in Europe, and in other aircraft(P51s) the allisons didnt perform as the merlin did.
Its quite curious as at some point the allisons were turboed and I would think that would have been great at high altitude.

We also see that in unlimted racing the allison rods are in merlins are the way to go, but no one is using allisons in unlimted. Did the engine just have less potential or did the development just go into the merlin.

Can we imagine a griffon powered p38,

Did the p38 return to europe late in the war for ground attack, i know at some point they were pulled.,

Lindberg seems to have clandestinly had sucess with the p38.

P40 P38 P51, really were all the biz in the specific time and location of combat. Thunderbolt was durable but seems to lack the grace of the others.

Would be curious to know what the relative adnavtges are of a let model spit vs p51D vs Fw190. I know the P51 had real rnage, but in combat how did one fare against the other. Much written that the 190 was superlative. What do the historc guys say about those new build 190s vs the yak vs the p51.

 

The supercharging system is an integral part of the engine design so was far more than just bolting on some different parts. And that was the big operational difference between the 2. The Allison was not designed for the high altitude performance the Merlin was. As soon as we experienced that performance it was all they could do to get as many Merlins as they could. I had read a long time ago that General Motors offered to redesign the Allison for a 2 stage blower but were turned down. Many feel, me included the Allison was basically a better design and much easier to care for. That was obviously fixed with the turbochargers on the P38 but all of that takes up a lot of space and is just not a real solution for an airframe like the P51 or a Spitfire. Part of the reason the P47 looks rather portly is the turbocharging system. P47 is a big airplane.

Late version P47 went higher, faster and further than P51 ever did. A P47 with an experimental low drag wing that was too late to put in production was unofficially the first piston powered aircraft to top 500 mph

 

Hello Taz:

Please pardon my ignorance if you have mentioned this in the past, but what aircraft did you fly while in the service?

Regards,

Jim

 

Jim- Mostly F-111s operationally, but also F-4Gs, RF-4Cs, F-15Ds and F-16Ds as an evaluator for the USAFE IG and NATO TacEval teams.

Bob- War Emergency Power used water injection to somewhat stave off preignition/detonation, but really beat up the engine, like you said. It allowed very high boost pressures. Once the water ran out, severe damage could result and there were strict limits on how long WEP should be used. Not always observed, obviously.

 

To be clear, I do not work on them (Merlin/Allison) but I know those who do. Also I have spent some time reading about their development and every chance I get look at them torn down. That is my opinion too but I hate to start fights with those who worship Merlins. As was said by someone else the air racers running modified Melins are running Allison rods due to their better design and additional strength. Lots of stuff in my opinion was better designed in the Allison. It just suffered from the supercharger, which as I said the offer was made to change due to the desire to have better high altitude performance but was turned down. Turned down in much the same way Republic offered to give the P47 longer legs and was turned down too in favor of the P51. That was revisited once the range of the 51 was maxed out and they needed more for the B29's. All of the sudden it was full speed ahead with the P47 range improvements.

Odd influences and outright corruption with government procurement has a very long history.

 

The P-47N that popped out near the end of the war had much better legs than the P-47D and was quite a bit faster. Designed to escort B-29s if the A-bombs had not done the trick. The hot-rod P-47Ms (with early N engines) made it into service with the 56th in the ETO before the war ended, but the N never made it.

 

Taz: Thank you. I had to look up a number of the aircraft as there were designations that were unfamiliar to me. For example, I did not know that the F-111 was a variable wing design. I thought, wrongly, that the F-14 and F-15 were the firsts to have such a feature.

I spent time in Las Vegas and went to a number of air shows, so I got to see many current, e.g., the various Stealths, and vintage aircraft. Most memorable was Nellis' 50th anniversary celebration. Both my wife and I crawled through a B-17 to sit in the cockpit, and we were surprised to feel how confining it was. It occurred to us that it must have been Hollywood theatrics to get Gregory Peck to fit in the cockpit during the filming of "12 O'clock High" or more Hollywood artistry for the cockpit scenes of a deeply favorite movie of mine, "Air Force". I also had an opportunity to speak with a couple of Thunderbird pilots, and they spoke of the ability of the F-16 to accomplish high G maneuvers. In looking up the aircraft's capabilities, I had no idea it could accomplish a 9G rate of change/direction.

One of the T-bird pilots pulled from his pocket a blue V-shaped medallion, which I believe is called the winged star, and gave it to me. It is dearly treasured.

Wow. I stand in awe of what you did.

 

F15 does not have a moveable wing.

 

Thanks Rifledriver for the correction. I got "Top Gun" all wrong. I thought Cruise, et.al., were flying F-15s. I read that they were F-14 Tomcats.

I think my brain is going.

 

Aparently the p47 could take more punishment and hits than the others too.
Amazing times when you could trash engines and aircraft and as long as you survived to get into another plane all was good.
One of those things in the battle of Britain spit and Hurrician guys that survived a bailout had replacement aircraft that day and could fight again, whereas the luftwaffe guys were prisoners.

Later in the war Lfwaffe guys could bail out over Germany. Some of the few flew for 6 years and had multiple bailouts in a day.

 

The unlimited boat racers mainly used Allison’s Untill the stock dwindled and they went to Turbines. I wonder if it was cost power or durability that made the Allison so attractive.

I think some PT boats ran an Allison. Derivative too.

Kermit Weeks has a stockpile of them.

 

Allisons and Merlins never went in PT's. The gas engines were 2500 inch Packard supercharged marine engines with no relation to aviation engines.

As far as boat racers, Allison's were plentiful and reasonably priced.

 

Thanks for the clarification.would love more detail on the packard motors
Harahs boat thunderbird I believe ran those packages boat motors for a while. The captain was told never to use all the power.

saw the boat a few years back but it had different power by then.

interssting that some of the mercury racing big v8s which are a custom block etc are pushing out Merlin Allison type power.

would love to build a bonneville car with one of those Aussie or Ryan falconer pushrod v12s
And once I’m on this big tangent that’s what a viper should have had, a pushrod v12 would have made it something.

 

Had some friends in the boat scene at Lake Tahoe. Thunderbird is very famous and built by famous yacht builder Hackercraft, Bill Harrah bought it in the early 60s and had a pair of Allisons installed. A few years ago it was restored and I believe a pair of marine diesels were installed.

PT boat engines. Really big. Marine specific. Big round housing on end is supercharger.
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Awesome.

 

@boxerman & Rifledriver: as long as we're so far off-thread already, let me add some clarity here; Whittells Thunderbird is a Hacker design, originally powered by 2 550 hp Kermath V-12's. Bill Harrah repowered the boat with 2 Allisons in 1962. They were rated at 1,000 hp each. Thats also when the flybridge was added. She was fairly completely restored about 3 years ago, and the Allisons were completely overhauled. They now rate at about 1,300 hp ea.
T-Bird never had Packards; way too heavy. They weigh about 2400 lbs. ea. wet. They do offer 2500 cubic inches, and 1500 hp in 'normal' trim, capable of 1700 hp for a limited time (10-15 minutes). But they do not work well in typical 'pedal down, pedal up' mode; they were designed to run at a fairly constant speed (70' boat loitering around, then hell for leather for 5 minutes, loose the torpedoes, and run like hell back to base.)
The far right pic of a Packard looks to be my old motor; donated to the Thousand Islands Museum in the mid-nineties. Sure made an awesome sound when it ran.... Still have an extra carburetor; too rusty to restore, and it must weigh 50 lbs! Looks good in the boat barn tho.....

 

Thanks. I didn't know Thunderbird still had the Allisons. Seems odd considering its use. Beautiful boat though. Cold water has been kind to the hull.

 

Some 10 years ago I was at the Lake Tahoe in the Hyatt resort at Incline village for a lunch when the Thunderbird arrived and moored at the pier there. And a certain Chesley Sullenberger stepped this boat. A very impressive sight of a true hero and a spectacular yacht. He was the guest of honor of a charity lunch in the Hyatt to raise some money for the restauration of Thunderbird.

 

It is a beautiful boat in a beautiful setting. Sullenberger and I lived just a couple of miles from each other when I lived in California. Small town and they threw him a big party when all that happened. He and his wife are nice people.

 

Dave Triano did the restoration
http://www.trianomarine.com/photos-3/index.html

 

Now, how did a thread about Boeing turn into a thread about powerboats?

(The only real connection is that Bill Boeing Jr. once campaigned an unlimited hydroplane, driven by the great Mira Slovak. But saying that will probably send Bob Parks off on a tangent!)

 

Yeah, that was in the back of my mind as I was continuing the boat/motor tangent.......so:
Humans Make Comeback @ Boeing!
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https://www.thomasnet.com/insights/boeing-replaces-robots-with-humans-after-777-assembly-errors/