Will we finally have a worthy world champion?

People were talking about Alonso carrying Ferrari on his back and nearly winning in 2012 with a vastly inferior car, not Hamilton, who was busy being a Massa magnet in 2011, not carrying McLaren during that time. Team principals consistently ranked Alonso the best driver in F1 during his tenure with Ferrari. That is an indisputable fact, not revisionist history.

As for the rest of what you posted, I agree.

 

I fixed the first part for you.

I don’t disagree with you. The driver needed to be at least as skilled as Nico Rosberg to win a championship. Bottas is marginally better than Massa was at the end of his career.

 

You're arguing a point that was never made, which happens often here. I never said that he was rated the best driver on the grid at that time. I never said he was the story of the year. I said he was noted for his abilities while not having the best car. Which is true. Even Alonso has said as much. But people talk about 2009-2013 like Hamilton was Grosjean.

Between 2010-2012 Hamilton won 10 races in the dominant red bull era.
Lets use 2010 as an example.
He finished 4th in 2010 behind the red bulls and Alonso.
The points spread was:
Vettel: 256
Alonso: 252
Webber: 242
Hamilton: 240

I'm failing to see where he is "nowhere"

For comparison lets use Max Verstappen. Since 2015 Max has won 8 races... 8... I guess he sucks. During that time Max has had his own run-ins with accidents. Nobody would say Max is nowhere.

Like I said, revisionist history.

 

You make very salient points, but he was never really in contention during 2010, and no one is Grosjean, except Maldonado, and perhaps 2011 Hamilton. That was undoubtedly the lowest point in his career, considering how Button outclassed him. My "nowhere" comment was regarding his championship contention during those four years, which I should have stated.

 

And this herein is the problem.... Language and inconsistent metrics. We highlight one or two seasons and say “ah-ha you see, if he is so good why did he have a bad season?” We use terms like “outclassed” as if Hamilton didn’t have more race wins and pole positions over the period of time they were teammates and finished ahead of Button 2 out of 3 years. So because Button finished ahead of him once and Nico won (arguably because of reliability lets cut the nonsense) then Ham is questioned. NOBODY at any point of time would have picked either Nico or Button over Hamilton or even argue that their abilities are or ever were near equal during those times.

Alain Prost beat Senna and is a 4 time champion yet when it comes to greatest drivers of all time, the exceedingly vast majority of fans would choose Senna over Prost.

If Schumacher was so good why did he have to resort to underhanded tactics. He rammed Hill... was disqualified from a championship and purposefully caused a red flag so that Alonso couldn’t challenge for pole. Nobody judges his illustrious career from those moments.

Stuff like this is why the vitriol towards Lewis has no bearing in reality, because there is no consistency in judging professionalism and racecraft here. Only he is subjected to this nonsense.

 

Hate is deep seated in some people, as you know.
This forum is the ideal media for detractors to attack Hamilton.

 

You raise some good valid points, and many times I have tried to find reasonable justification for the amount of vitriol and seemingly sinister
animosity directed Hamiltons way.
However I'am sure a Mods job is not an easy one at all dealing with it, and a thankless task, the option I took was a self induced hiatus, rather than read the drivel.

To date for the most part, it appears most of the nonsense has died down somewhat, or at least it appears that way if you scan read , hopefully it will continue.

Afterall there is some great information and intelligent debates, with some light hearted banter, because I aint no killjoy.. I can only conclude, that folk do tend to hate a winner, and the more he wins....ect...ect.

 

It died allright, i'll just show you how much!
I have done a curious research so, here it goes:
gp race posts per race.

Australia - 584
bahrain - 635
China - 584
Azerbaijan - 585
Spain - 504
Monaco - 679
Canada - 1084
France - 345
Austria - 635
Britain - 375
Germany - 726
Hungary - 355
Spa - 464
Italy - 711
Singapore - 458
Russia - 450
japan - 259
Mexico - 255
Usa - 239

So, just looking at this data we can see that when Ferrari is competitive and or wins, numbers are a lot bigger, when it goes badly, we don't show up and elton lovers have a mini-party...and since we put them on ignore and basicaly left (japan, the numbers are down to half!!!)
This just shows what happened to this place when Tiffosi decided enough was enough and let The Trolls take over and turn this into Mercedeschat. I just went down the toilet, and Mods know this perfectly.

 

Your premise does not support your conclusion. You stated that "...when it goes badly, we don't show up..." Seems like your beef should be with Ferrari and their drivers for not giving you more/consistent reason to show up. Not with Mercedes or Hamilton and his "lovers".

 

I have zero doubt that being a mod is a thankless job. And I do scan and usually just skip over the denigration posts. If you look at my post count you can see I rarely post. I read and enjoy (most times) and move on.

 

That's some good preaching! Totally agree

 

If only others folowed your example

 

Pretty clearly a personal attack, unless you have some specific access to an IQ test for the user that none of us is aware of.

In the true spirit of giving, I'll grant your wish. Permanent thread ban and one day site wide ban for the personal attack.

Lets not get the year off to a bad start.

D

 

Yes Dave, it was a personal attack, and what do you think the post from Mitch was? or don't you see any implications for all of those that consider themselves tiffosi in what he said?

 

That's like saying, "Left handed people are stupid." It's an attack aimed at a group. On the other hand if you say, "DAVE, you're stupid." Well, that's a horse of a different color.

I'm not discounting the comments of others here, but when you aim a disparaging remark at an individual user and acknowledge that's exactly what you've done, well, not a lot of wiggle room there.

The F1 forum is a combative, argumentative, excitable bunch of passionate fans on all sides of the track. The name calling last year was very personal at times, and that needs to stop. I'm not here to edit or clean up the mess created by others, I'm here to provide guidance as to the rules.

D

 

So if i said Elton fans are idiots you would be ok with it? Because i don't think you would. Obviously Mitch comment was generic, but we all know whom it was aimed at, and implying someone is racist is IMO a far graver insinuation than calling someone an idiot.

 

I believe users here do that REGULARLY without getting banned. Of course all comments have to be reviewed in situ, but if there were no other conditions, then sure, it'll fly.

If you said, "ALL THE ELTON FANS HERE ON FCHAT ARE IDIOTS," that would be a different story.

Are you picking up on the not so subtle difference?

 

Got it, case closed.

 

Careful, your subjectivity is showing.

While I have acknowledged that I could have been clearer, upon rereading what I wrote, it was still fairly obvious that the "nowhere comment" was in direct comparison to Hamilton's stellar years.

It seems that you only like the metrics that prove your points. You are correct that Hamilton had more wins and pole positions than Button, but you can't discuss that without also discussing the fact that Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren, which means that while Hamilton had more flashes of brilliance, Button was the more consistent driver, who did not allow his life off the track to affect his performance like Hamilton did, if you want to talk about "professionalism."

Regarding Rosberg, It is well within the realm of possibility that some of Hamilton's engine failures had to do with him overdriving his car under pressure, just like how Vettel's engine coincidentally blew when he was trying to get away from Leclerc in Sochi this past season. It's telling that the only thing those Mercedes engine failures had in common was the pilot.

https://www.motor1.com/news/100632/no-link-between-hamilton-engine-failures-mercedes/

It's also humorous that you complain about no one judging Schumacher, but that's exactly what you and others frequently do here, and rightfully so. Schumacher is not above criticism, and neither is Hamilton. If it seems like people are more critical of Hamilton than Schumacher, it's because Hamilton is current while also having access to the most dominant car in F1. Regardless of how dominant the Mercedes is, I still believe Hamilton beats Vettel in equal machinery, but that Mercedes does make Hamilton's job easier. That is simply irrefutable.

I've already stated that Hamilton and Alonso are the two best of their era with Vettel being a somewhat distant third, but that never seems to be enough for Hamilton fans. Any criticism always just comes off as "vitriol" that isn't based in reality.

 

At least you give some credit to Hamilton, I accept that.
That's more than some people on this thread who think that even with 6 titles, he is not a "worthy" world champion.

 

Nah - in the modern era, this is not really a thing

 

He's a great driver. I think that's pretty indisputable. The Mercedes is such a double-edged sword though. It has provided him the opportunity to walk all over the competition and win those championships, but it has ironically opened him up to the criticism that "anyone" could win in that car. I feel like if the car was less dominant, there would be far less detraction. Regardless, it still doesn't mean he's not worthy.

 

I agree with your points,but i will also add the same could be said for Senna's Mclaren or Schumacher's Ferrari. Neither Senna or Schumi won a championship until they had a well developed car and team. So it seems if their cars were less dominant it would be far less detraction as well.

 

I didn’t read your entire response once you lumped me in with others who apparently talk poorly of Michael. This is my 18th post in the entire forum. You cannot find one post from me saying anything negative about Schumacher outside of this thread. And that was only in comparison to the inconsistent metrics used to discuss different drivers. I also described Schumacher’s career as illustrious. But I won’t respond further, I made my point and only wish we discuss racing and do it with far more tact that has been displayed. Be well sir.

 

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I lumped you in with those who judge rightfully, as your criticisms were fair, not those who talk poorly. Hopefully, you no longer believe I have been tactless. Cheers.