Dino DIY - Replacing the starter with a Gear Reduction unit | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Dino DIY - Replacing the starter with a Gear Reduction unit

Discussion in '206/246' started by synchro, Nov 28, 2009.

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  1. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
    9,294
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    Scott
    #26 synchro, Aug 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    CAUTION NOT ALL ARE THE SAME: Cannonball Jack came through town this week with the 1975 CannonBall winning Dino (LA to NY in 35 hours and 53 mins with only one jailing) as an invitee by The Pebble Beach event as part of their yearly 10 day Rallye from Seattle to Monterey, called The Pebble Beach Motoring Classic.

    The night before the start of the Pebble Beach Motoring Classic, his Dino 05984 had an INOP issue with his newly installed gear reduction starter purchased from GT Car Parts in Phoenix, AZ. I am guessing these Pebble Beach Rallyes cost at least $10,000 all inclusive so I quickly invited him over to my house and I worked until late in the night on a solution in my garage.

    Turns out his gear reduction starter is far different than the one I bought from Martin's British starter motors (http://www.ferraristarters.com/Dino.html). Upon removal I noticed the difference and first thing in the morning then took it to a local reputable Electrical Auto shop who said that Jack's solenoid plunger bound up due to tolerances that were too tight, resulting in freezing the action. Furthermore, it was cobbled together from Japanese parts (the Tech's words not mine).

    HOW CAN I TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM?
    The layout and proximity of the battery power terminal and solenoid terminal are the difference you can notice at a glance. Jack's failed unit had at least 3 inches between the battery power terminal and the solenoid terminal while those on mine were nearly adjacent.

    While the Pebble Beach Motoring Classic had already departed that morning, we were able to get the starter repaired, reinstalled, tested and cleaned up so that Jack & Iris May were off by 2PM. Furthermore, the Pebble Beach Motoring Classic chose a back roads route through the mountains that would not have been easy for any other 76 year old from Florida that had never been to Washington State. I jumped in my Audi and led them to the route at the base of the mountains so they could easily catch up within hours.

    With the last street light passed and The Cascade Mountains in front of them I was about to pull over to shake Jack's hand and say good bye. As I looked back I noticed him dead in the water with hazard lights on. The clutch cable had snapped. I don't think there is another person in the State with that exact part in stock, besides the one for my restoration, so we called triple A and towed him back for another late night extended session of Dino repair work, but that is another story...

    I've never seen a person more positive and social about such incidents - Jack has a big personality and this small stuff does not faze him. In fact, he met the countryside locals that were instantly attracted to "the beautiful car with all the stickers" and it was an opportunity for Jack to tell racing stories. Here is a short excerpt of one anecdote by master story teller, Jack May, while we waited for the flatbed

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi8RkZdCLCQ[/ame]
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  2. rynoshark

    rynoshark Formula 3
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    Jun 6, 2004
    1,019
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    Scott, really generous of you to help Cannonball Jack out! A few years back the clutch cable on my GT snapped as well, but I managed the 20 mile drive back home without shifting out of 3rd. If this wasn't an unwieldy long part to carry around I'd suggest having it as a spare for anyone who has never changed theirs before.
     
  3. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    First the starter and then the next day the clutch cable - up until midnight both days, then up again at 5AM two+ days in a row, goodness gracious I just wanted visitors to have a good impression of the Pacific NorthWest.

    Both months where we actually see the sun are so nice and clear...LOL

    PS - Jack called again today, he keeps touting his top speeds for the day and I nearly go into cardiac arrest (tell you about his dry rotted XDX tires later)
    Holy Mackeral!
     
  4. Neilt

    Neilt Rookie

    Feb 1, 2004
    6
    After several clutch cable seizures over the years on my 246 GTS. I replaced it with a hydraulic system made up of parts bought from Superformance (UK) Ltd from their Fiat Dino stock. Best thing I ever did; smooth action and no more breakages or seizures.
     
  5. racerboy9

    racerboy9 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 3, 2003
    2,499
    Any pics of your setup? Any chopping on the car or can it be taken back to the original setup without welding, etc?
     
  6. Neilt

    Neilt Rookie

    Feb 1, 2004
    6
    Mine's been on the car over ten years, but from what I can remember, only mounting bracket screwholes were necessary. I'll maybe post some pictures later; when I can work out how to do it on this site.
     
  7. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,616
    Pacific Palisades
    Please do. I recently replaced my clutch cable. Second one for the same car. My other cars have never had their clutch cables replaced. So if yours has lasted 10 years, then I'm interested.
     
  8. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Perhaps this is worthy of its own thread rather than muddle clutch improvements with starter issues?
     
  9. need4speed

    need4speed Formula 3

    Nov 3, 2003
    1,616
    Pacific Palisades
    Synchro,

    So true! I even forgot it was a starter thread. :0
     
  10. Rock

    Rock Formula 3

    Nov 9, 2003
    1,652
    Toronto, Canada
    Full Name:
    Rocco
    stock rebuild should be fine
     
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  11. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Just got asked in a PM about this so wanted to give a fast forward update.

    Over 16,000 kMs including several days in 104+ degree temps and absolutely no starter issues.

    Just beware that not all gear reduction starters are the same


     
  12. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
    3,811
    Norfolk - UK
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    Tony
    Interesting post Scott, I have to agree that the GR unit is a good improvement on cranking the engine over, it draws much less current than the old unit. After persevering with the original I succumbed to tossing it overboard.

    I fitted the WOSP unit and although its a nice and compact, extreme care needs to be made about the close proximity of the starters external wiring loom to the heat shield.

    These shields get hot and can transfer a lot of heat into the starter, if the terminal touches the cover, which it did in my case, there will be an almighty bang once it burns through.

    The Starter has a loose mounting flange that can be rotated to get the best mounting position with 3 pre drilled holes to secure the loose flange to the starter.

    The middle mounting hole was the optimum one on first impression but when I checked the gap between the terminal and the heat shield it was very close, if not touching. rotating the starter to the third hole and the motor hit the diff casing. rotating it to the first hole and it hit the engine block.

    In typical dino fashion (everything takes far longer than it should) the best position meant I had to redrill the hole but this then came on the external diameter of the middle hole thus resulting in a hole that would of been too big. A one degree rotation made a huge difference

    Contacted WOSP, explained the situation and they sent out a new blank undrilled flange by first class post.
     
  13. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    #38 synchro, May 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I also had an issue with the flange, yesterday it departed at the mounting hole.
    Sent an email with these pics, electrical is still 100%



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  14. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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    #39 synchro, May 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  15. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

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  16. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California
    #41 4CamGT, Mar 6, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
    Well, my original starter finally gave up! I went out to start my Dino and only “click-click”! Thought it was originally my 10+ year old batter. Got a new battery and same thing. A few years ago I got a new Gustafson gear reduction high torque starter from Rob. Well...I gave Rob a call and before you know it, he, Annetta and their dog, Dino came over! A couple of hours later, the new starter was installed!

    To get access,

    - Disconnected the battery!

    - We removed the trunk firewall by removing the bolts, the two outboard carpet snap screws and 3 upper rivets. After removing the trunk lid, it was easy to move it out of the way w/o removing the emergency engine lid release.

    - Removed the header bolts and lower header/muffler bolts. Pulled the header off and slid it to the side for access.

    - Removed the starter motor bolts and unplugged the wires.

    - Installed the new motor by reversing the sequence but with new copper header gaskets from Rutlands.

    It was pretty straight forward. Rob did 95% of the work. I assisted where necessary.

    What a difference! It spins so fast and confident! I am really pleased. Rob and I then went out for a really long drive through our backroads and then into the Santa Monica Mountains driving the canyon roads up into altitude.

    Thanks Rob (and Annetta)!


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  17. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    This is what I had to remove to get access. The upper three rivets were drilled out. I replaced them with sheet metal screws of the same size for easier future access.

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  18. mar3kl

    mar3kl Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2011
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    Only in Ferrari-land would a panel designed to be removed, and with seven removable bolts, also have three rivets you have to drill out.
     
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  19. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    Could it be because it was designed to take out the crossbar assembly with the panel? This is so much simpler!
     
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  20. synchro

    synchro F1 Veteran

    Feb 14, 2005
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    Great write up and help - except those photos of Rob were not his best side
    :)

    Have you become accustom to the new sound of the starter?


    They were all rivets
     
  21. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    #47 4CamGT, Mar 7, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
    The lower 7 bolts on mine went into threaded holes.

    I like the sound of the starter. Spins super fast and immediate. The best sound however, was when we took my Dino into the canyons for a great drive! Rob commented on how great it drove and how tight it was. The sound was fantastic! Rob is a great Dino driver and really gets the most out of the car. Last year I ended up putting the stock DCNF setup back on. Rob commented on how well they were tuned. As were were driving through the twisty canyons we commented how so few people drive their Dinos as they were intended. They’re truly one of the best, most fun cars in this environment!




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  22. GermanDino

    GermanDino F1 Rookie

    Aug 14, 2007
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  23. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Sep 3, 2002
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    Thank you for the kind words Freeman. Changing the starter was quite painless and merely just procedure. A gear reduction starter is an essential upgrade because the stock starter is 'just' good enough but if you have the slightest flood or vapor lock then it is just not strong enough to turn the engine without draining the battery. The difference in sound is minor and is less the starter and more the sound of an engine that is actually turning at a decent speed when being cranked.

    As for the test drive well that was outstanding. The roads in the area are fantastic especially a freshly paved mountain section with perfect cambers and endless curves. The Dino is not about going fast but of being balanced. It does not offer brutal acceleration but you really get the feeling of a car where all of its facets are in tune with one another. When well sorted, a Dino is an outstanding sports car even by 2020 standards.
     
  24. DinoLasse

    DinoLasse Formula Junior
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    May 26, 2009
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    Another reason to switch to a gear reduction starter is that it is smaller and lighter than the stock unit. To remove or replace such a starter, you do NOT need to loosen the exhaust headers - at least not in my car.

    I recently replaced one gear reduction starter with another, and all I had to do was too loosen the trunk panel, remove the starter and install the new one, working from the trunk. I did not need to touch the header. Easier than I thought.
     

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