550 still won’t start... | FerrariChat

550 still won’t start...

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by niftyfivefifty, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Mar 5, 2007
    366
    PacNW
    Hi everyone, I have been working with Specialized ECU Repair to troubleshoot my starting issues, and here is where we’re at:

    • The car is a 2001 550 Maranello I purchased last year with 21k miles, and it now has 29k miles.
    • It received a new motor at 20k miles and everything looks brand new including mechanicals, hard/soft parts, wiring, etc.
    • It came with a big stereo system with questionable wiring, most of which I removed.
    • After I drove it 5000 miles, it had a right ECU failure late last summer where the ECU power supply and some caps needed to be replaced. Once that was resolved it ran great, but I left the stereo unpowered.
    • It has a brand new Odyssey Extreme battery.
    • It had a fresh major about 4k miles ago (fall 2019). All grounds were checked and everything looked great.
    • I reconnected power to the stereo system a couple weeks ago and went for a spirited 90 minute drive without any issues.
    • When I went to start it the next day, it would attempt to run for a few seconds and then sputter off.
    • I disconnected the stereo but the behavior was the same.
    • Attempting additional starts yielded similar results, sometimes it doesn’t fire or surges to 2000rpm but it always quickly dies.
    • I initially saw a P0103 MAF voltage code, but it only showed once, and it hasn’t happened again.
    • The info LCD on the dash goes a little crazy with low fuel indicator (tank is half full), FCS error, and suspension error. The LCD also fades and flickers.
    • I sent my ECUs to Specialized ECU Repair and they reported everything tested well and looks great.
    • Specialized ECU Repair sent me their known working “reference” ECUs with security and immobilizer computers. I installed these today and I am getting the same behavior. It cranks, tries to run for a second or two, and then dies.
    • Now I am getting misfire codes for many cylinders.
    • The immobilizer is not arming. The red light on the dash never starts blinking and the car can attempt to turn over well after the normal time it takes for the immobilizer to arm without the need to press the FOB to unlock/disarm. Does this mean anything?
    • I removed the inertia switch to inspect it, and reset it, but still no luck. I ordered a new one from Ricambi just in case because I don’t think I hear my fuel pumps turning on.
    That’s where I’m at so far. Before I take the car to my local Ferrari guy, has anyone experienced something similar and found a solution? All of the threads I have found with similar behavior do not seem to reach a conclusion, so I am hoping someone here may know anything else I can try. Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    While you're waiting for the inertia switch to arrive, you could remove the connector and short out the black and the white-black wires (not the purple). Or just ground the white-black wire.

    Having said that, it doesn't sound good that your immobiliser is not auto arming. Can you arm it with the fob?

    Misfire could be caused by a lot of things. Are the misfires on one bank only?
     
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  3. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Mar 5, 2007
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    PacNW
    Qavion! Thanks for the questions, and the inertia switch idea, I will try that tomorrow. Yes, it will arm with the FOB. I am getting my security computer and immobilizer back tomorrow and I will see if it does the same thing.

    I was thinking the same thing regarding the misfire codes, buy only after I had cleared them, and they haven’t come back. I’ll try it again tomorrow.

    Is there a common point that would be somewhere between the fuel pumps and the immobilizer?
     
  4. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    Sounds like no fuel to me
     
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  5. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    According to the wiring diagrams, the Motronics ECUs control the injector relays and fuel pump relays (the latter in conjunction with the inertia relay, although some folks have reported that their inertia relay has been activated and their fuel pumps have remained operative).

    When the car is immobilised, I think the immobiliser ECU sends a disable signal to the Motronics ECUs to stop them activating the injector and pump relays. If both banks are not working due to loss of fuel, then it's probably an immobiliser problem rather than a Motronics ECU problem as each Motronics ECU controls its respective bank and fuel pump. It's unlikely both Motronics ECUs have failed.

    If the inertia switch on your car is linked to the fuel pump relays as shown in the diagrams, this would also cause problems with both banks (as there is only one inertia relay) linked to both fuel pumps on the 550.

    Do you know if you're getting a spark during cranking? I don't know if the ECUs also cut the spark on the 550 (when the immobiliser is activated). Ferrari immobilisers do different things depending on the model (or even the version). On my version of the F355 for example, the car won't even crank. On other 355's the immobiliser doesn't stop cranking. The 355 (5.2) immobiliser ECU is the same as the 550's but different pins may be in use.
     
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  6. Canuck550

    Canuck550 Formula Junior

    Sep 8, 2015
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    My recommendation...."It had a fresh major about 4k miles ago (fall 2019). All grounds were checked and everything looked great"
    First keep it simple, perhaps you completed this already?
    Backtrack what was done with the Major, symptoms appear right after this, trace backwards, fuel filters pumps, battery, coil, plugs, wires etc...check all connections etc
     
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  7. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Thanks everyone.

    Today the immobilizer is arming, so I'm not sure what was happening yesterday. I still can't get the misfire codes to happen again.

    I shorted the inertia switch wires, and the car ran for about 7 seconds (much longer than before) but then died again. When I do get the car to fire, it dies almost immediately when I put my foot on the gas. The exhaust smells very very rich with gas. So rich that I thought I had a fuel leak, but all of the smell was coming from the muffler tips. So I am wondering if I am losing spark, which I will have my mechanic inspect.

    The major was pretty thorough with the removal of everything down to and including the valve covers. So this means plugs, plug wires, injectors, fuel rails, intake manifold, intakes, throttle bodies, etc. I have read that any one of these components, even an intake gasket leak, can cause issues similar to what I am experiencing.

    The car will be taken to my mechanic tomorrow or Friday and I will be sure to keep this thread updated with my progress.

    Thanks again.
     
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  8. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    Pull a plug wire and check the spark ?
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    It takes 3 things to make an engine run. Fuel, ignition and compression. One of the three is missing and figuring out which will eliminate 2/3 of the possibilities and give you a chance of success.

    Hoping by chance to land on the exact cause without any methodical program gives you the same chance as buying a lottery ticket.
     
  10. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    I was able to verify it has spark with a timing light. Still no CEL codes, and it happens with both my security computer/immobilizer, as well as the known working security computer/immobilizer combo. I'll try to test for fuel tomorrow when I get some more time with it.

    Thanks everyone.
     
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  11. 360trev

    360trev F1 Rookie
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    I've seen this problem once before on another Ferrari model. Similar things and there was corrosion on the earthing points which are used by the immobilizer and engine ecus. Also had intermittent wiring fault on immobilizer loom too which took ages to fault find.

    My solution was to completely eliminate the immobilizer by patching original code in engine ecus and also fixed earthing strap for engines. Car ran faultless after that.

    Trev
     
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  12. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    I received my ECUs back from Specialized ECU Repair yesterday, and reinstalled them in the car. I haven't had a chance to test any of the fuel system yet, and I will likely leave that to my mechanic when the car is picked up in the coming week.

    However, after I installed the ECUs and turned the key to "on", when I put my foot on the brake pedal, the front parking lights lit up instead of the rear brake lights. How could this possibly happen? Bad ground?
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    OMG!
     
  14. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    It's impossible :D

    Do your rear parking/position lights also go on when you push the brake pedal? There doesn't seem to be any common earths between the brake lights and the front parking lights. The rear parking lights have the same earth as the brake lights, however.
     
  15. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3
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    Bad ground, and/or broken wire(s)
     
  16. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Nothing lights up out back, only the front orange lights in the headlight housings. Would a bad hazard switch do this? Both turn signal arrow lights on the dash turn on when I turn the key to "on", and I don't remember them doing that before.

    Thanks!
     
  17. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    #17 Qavion, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
    Not 100% sure, but this sounds like your inertia switch. In event of a crash, it's supposed to turn on your hazard lights. Did you fit the new one yet? I don't think it's possible to damage anything by shorting out the wrong pins on that plug.

    There is a diode in the inertia switch/hazard light circuit (#255), but I don't know where it is located and I don't know what effect it would have if it was broken.

    Ferrari_550_Engine_Service_&_HVAC
     
  18. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    Yes, this is with the new inertia switch installed. I had to break away to put the kids to bed, but I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow.
     
  19. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    In the wiring diagrams, there is an earth/ground labelled "305" for basically everything in the rear of the car (rear lights, fuel pumps, fuel indication... ), but I can't figure out where it is on the car. One harness diagram shows an earth at the top of the rear window (left hand side), but I can't imagine that is an earth for all these things.

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    The 456M has better harness diagrams, but they are just too different. The 456M grounds are up behind the rear wheel arches.

    I still can't find a connection between these lights, but you might want to trying shorting out the connector on the inertia switch again to ensure that the new switch is not faulty.
    As well as activating the hazard lights, the inertia switch also sends a signal to the dash digital display, but I can't find any warning symbols relating to this (in the workshop manual). Are there any strange symbols on the display?

    Other wild ideas...

    Check your windscreen wiper and fuel lid release button to see if fuse 4 has not blown (this fuse also powers the brake lights).
     
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  20. niftyfivefifty

    niftyfivefifty Formula Junior
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    SOLVED! I traced all of the harnesses in the rear of the car, and I found the cluster of rear ground wires which was completely disconnected. It looks like whoever installed the original stereo used the factory grounding point for the McIntosh amp wiring, but they forgot to reattach the car’s ground. The car’s ground wire was stuffed up in the left pass-through area between the rear deck and the trunk, and it was likely grounding out on something metal up there until my very spirited drive knocked it loose. I also had a voltage issue before where the car would sometimes drop below 10v. This is no longer an issue, and the car drives perfectly now. Thanks to everyone here for the help and support, especially Qavion. If we are ever in the same city drinks are on me.

    Sending my ECUs to Specialized ECU Repair was actually good because they were able to install their new range extender in my security module. My car now responds to the remote from far away rather than only 1-2 ft. from the door. If anyone is considering this upgrade I highly recommend it.

    Now I can finally drop my car off to have the equal length headers installed. Whew!
     
  21. 308 GTB

    308 GTB F1 World Champ
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    That's great news!!!

    Ian is very helpful on the 348/355 forum too.
     
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  22. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Good news!!
     
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  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Excellent, that's one for the memory banks.

    Grounds were suspected quite early on the piece, so I can't claim the credit. Who would have thought that grounds in the rear would have caused so many problems at the front of the car!
     
  24. Laserguru

    Laserguru Formula 3
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    Indeed! But a floating ground is a first rate ***** of a gremlin in lots of systems. Allows floating potential differences. Congrats Nifty.
     
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