Ferrari short seller claims exclusivity is over and Ferrari doomed | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Ferrari short seller claims exclusivity is over and Ferrari doomed

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F430 Driver, Mar 4, 2020.

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Do you agree with the author of the article that exclusivity is over for Ferrari?

  1. I disagree with the author & think the days of Ferrari exclusivity are still alive and well!

    76 vote(s)
    41.3%
  2. I agree with the author and think exclusivity & the brand are sliding.

    108 vote(s)
    58.7%
  1. F430 Driver

    F430 Driver Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2008
    444
    Central New Jersey

    A) Not common everywhere. Newport. Monaco. Beverly Hills and other cities in the world sure. Generally speaking outside of ultra-high net worth areas a sighting is generally infrequent if not quite rare.

    B) 30 years ago there were over 100,000 fewer exotics on the road. So relatively speaking would be rarer but these days if you don't live in Silicon Valley or some other UHNW region or city in the world you won't find these cars driving around all the time.

    I go to car shows and yeah there are dozens or hundreds here in NJ/PA/NY being shown there. Dime a dozen. My 458 wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at the shows. I drive it around any part of NJ or PA and people flip out when they see these cars still. Every single time. Everyplace in the world is not Monaco. Some of us live in a bubble where the uncommon seems very common.

    If the goal is to be exclusive even WITHIN those concentrated wealthy cities then sure you are gonna need to get a Buggati or Koenigsegg or Pagani if you want to be the only one at the show or in those cities with one.

    Ferrari's, Lambos, Mclaren's, etc aren't dime a dozen when I travel locally and abroad. Your mileage may vary if you only frequent car spotting cities though
     
  2. bernardo66

    bernardo66 The Crazy Cat Man
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 14, 2003
    26,281
    Montreal Canada
    Full Name:
    Bernie
    Not long ago, there was a pristine one owner 1987 328GTS for sale in the used car section of a Honda dealership. So....truth!
     
  3. SCEye

    SCEye F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2009
    2,950
    Norcal - Peninsula
    I grew up near New Port Beach. Was referring to an earlier post about that area. Used to ride my old rusty Huffy to marvel at the rides in the NPB Ferrari showroom. Used to take PCH to go to school in Irvine (from Huntington Beach). It'd be a rarity to see a Ferrari.
    Now when I go back to that area, there are a lot more exotics driven around.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  4. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 17, 2006
    2,002
    New Jersey Shore
    I'm pretty new to the F-Car thing, but I would think Ferrari's plan to increase production is by introducing cars to people who never would have owned one before but had the money. Driving my F430 this week I can tell you there are friends of mine who could afford one, but never would buy one because they aren't super easy to drive for most people. They typically buy AMG Mercedes, Bentley and cars like that. However the 458 and newer cars seem to drive like normal cars till you get on them, so they attract people like my friends to buy one (or two) for their household. Plus if you add an SUV, those same people will buy one of those as well...

    As for the "used" market. I think the reason you have so many used for sale (I really don't think there are as many as he implies in the article), is that the cars actually last now. You still need to be able to afford the potential extra $$$$ for any issue that may pop up to make the decision to spend 100k+ on a used car vs buying a new Porsche or BMW with a warranty.

    Cheers,
    Corey
     
    arkferrari and F430 Driver like this.
  5. Julia

    Julia F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 22, 2014
    6,336
    Houston
    Let's say 50% Ferraris and the rest can be assorted. :)
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  6. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
    4,252
    Eastdown
    Full Name:
    Darius
  7. Minte

    Minte Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 19, 2004
    596
    Wisconsin
    This was on Forbes. Depending on how they apply their R&D budget it's safe to say that the Company does subsidize their F1 budget. I agree that you could call it advertising, but with more of a return than taking TV ads.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. SCEye

    SCEye F1 Rookie

    Aug 28, 2009
    2,950
    Norcal - Peninsula
    ahhhh... so they do in fact spend millions of dollars per year on (smart/effective) advertising :)
     
  9. Minte

    Minte Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 19, 2004
    596
    Wisconsin
    You are calling it advertising. According to the Forbes article and budget sheet, Ferrari calls it costs of sponsoring F1 racing.
    Mercedes calls it the same, yet also spend many millions in media advertising.

    That being said, I did/do agree that Ferrari gets advertising benefit from F1. So do all the suppliers that put their decals and logos on the cars and drivers suits. Does Ferrari really need to do it to continue selling cars?
     
  10. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    7,299
    NJ
    Full Name:
    RMani
    Ive been expecting the stock to not do well since inception but have been wrong. Regardless, Ferrari have already ruined their brand. They want all women and posers driving their cars daily. Nothing special about them anymore nor do they cater to car people.
     
    NikiLauda70 and DGPF like this.
  11. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Me interpreting that the majority of that list: Exclusivity and brand prominence are not binary ie brands like Ferrari don't need to be exclusive in order to thrive...so, the decline of exclusivity will continue.

     
  12. NikiLauda70

    NikiLauda70 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2019
    2
    Full Name:
    Richard Prati
    I saw that post, and the one before it. The first one he wrote was very detailed and researched. It was scary. The part that bothers me is that he is a Ferrari-guy, and maybe still drives one today, and appears to love the brand and cars but thinks management is ruining the business. I hate to say it but his points are reasonable.
    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4325637-how-to-destroy-great-global-brand-and-cult-of-ferrari
     
  13. wdmzl1

    wdmzl1 Rookie

    Nov 30, 2013
    3
     
  14. wdmzl1

    wdmzl1 Rookie

    Nov 30, 2013
    3
    In the short-run, demand for all high-end or super-cars will be adversely affected when the Tesla roadster is available. There will be fewer buyers willing to pay a half-million dollars or more for cars that cannot compete in speed with the Tesla which will most likely be priced below $300k. The Tesla will eliminate "bragging" rights gained by paying mega $$$$$$ for super cars. In the long-run, . . . . who will collect driverless cars?
     
  15. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    For many years the Corvette and other US vehicles have been faster than many Ferraris costing way more - and yet Ferrari sales keep increasing

    The effect of that Tesla will be no different
     
  16. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,346
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Of all the ferrari owners I know and have known, none have ever bragged about their car's 0 to 60 speed. It just wasn't a consideration when buying their car.
     
  17. Harrybond

    Harrybond Rookie

    Oct 19, 2018
    10
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Harold Bond
    I am a newish user to this website but an avid Ferrari owner with over 20 cars and all the supercars. First off I don't think he is right as far as RACE goes. The stock will obviously sell off with the coronavirus like everything else. Production will suffer significantly and so will the revenues. He probably made a lot of money on his short position but for none of the reasons he listed. That being said, Ferrari is walking a very fine line of wanting to significantly increase their revenues and expand their clientele and models to drive share value while at the same time remaining exclusive. Lots of increased sales/models/clients and exclusivity usually don't go hand in hand.

    I think this will have a big impact on any non-numbered cars and will even impact the value of special cars non-numbered cars like the Pista Spider which had a "limited production run" whatever that means. I am sure that everyone sees that a new Pista Spider has approximately the same resale value as a SpecialeA which was a numbered car but 5 years older. I believe that the cars in the future that will have the potential of holding their value will be the numbered cars which will be the anniversary cars and the icon cars (La Ferrari and Monza) most of the other cars will begin to depreciate like other luxury brands. If the special unnumbered cars (Speciale, Pista, TDF etc) loose their value right off the showroom floor it will eventually and significantly effect the buyers of the numbered cars who could move on to find more exclusive low production brands like Pagani.

    What could happen is that a lot of new clients fall in love with the Ferrari brand and get interested in collecting the cars. If that happens we could see the older supercars and limited production numbered cars do very well. Ferrari can't always look to its past it has to look forward and create a new legacy of greatness. One thing I can tell you for sure - Winning F1 a few years in a row would help everything!
     
  18. wmuno

    wmuno Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 24, 2007
    430
    Wilmette, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Bill Muno
    Probably true for the newer cars. However, the limited number of cars from the Enzo era still make them very desirable, and they hold their value. For example, look at the recent prices for a 250 GTO.
     
  19. rquad

    rquad Karting

    Jul 26, 2019
    84
    Georgia
    Well, first of all, whether it's Ferrari or anybody - or anything - else, there are always the doomsayers. So, you have to apply some intelligence to the squawkings. And, second, let's be realistic: ANY company can make mistakes or be affected by market conditions at ANY time and end up going down the tubes. So, is it possible for this to happen to Ferrari? Certainly. And Ferrari is producing more cars now than ever. That's not going to help, but as long as they don't flood the market and start producing entry level models (TRUE entry level models - I don't mean the Portofino) then they have a good chance of riding along with their reputation intact.

    As for the "anybody can buy a Ferrari" argument, there is some truth to that. I'm anybody. I bought a Ferrari (a 360). But can Joe Average Doe really buy a Ferrari? No. Joe Average Doe can only afford a used car, or a fairly low end new car, and then it's got to be reliable and economical enough to take him to work every day. And he's got to be able to afford regular insurance on it versus the cheaper classic car insurance many of us carry.

    For the family who can afford a $50k - $80k luxury car or SUV, can they afford a Ferrari? Hmmm. Maybe. But most of them don't think they can because most people think used Ferrari's are way more expensive than they really are, so they don't even look into the possibility of purchasing one. And even if they had interest, you still have to be able to garage the car and afford maintenance on it - which limits the buyer pool.

    Enthusiasts like me who have more financial means than Joe Average Doe but probably don't qualify as "rich" (whatever you choose to make that word mean) are keeping Ferrari's on the road, which may take away somewhat from their exclusivity, but I think the effect is minimal. Just about no one puts the same miles on a Ferrari that they do any other type of car, so the exotics end up staying in the garage more than they do seeing the road. There are *at least* half a dozen Ferrari's in my county, but I've never seen any of them on the road except at car events. I drive my car a lot by Ferrari standards, but it's only out of the garage 2 - 4 times a month. That means its appearance is a rare thing, which perpetuates the exclusivity.

    As far as the comparison to other brands, it just doesn't apply. The only other manufacturer that has the same sort of reputation as Ferrari is Lamborghini. None of the other companies have achieved the household-name status of these two rivals, so you can't look elsewhere for examples of what may happen - or what has already happened. Ferrari and Lamborghini are both legendary and mysterious. I can't really explain why that's the case. When you look at some of the accomplishments of McLaren, Bughatti, and Konnigsegg, it's hard to believe they haven't supplanted Ferrari and Lamborghini at the top of the exotic heap. But they haven't. And, quite possibly, they never will regardless of their accomplishments.

    I'm not holding my breath on Ferrari going under. And every time I get behind the wheel, I feel more certain that it won't.
     
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  20. rmani

    rmani F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    7,299
    NJ
    Full Name:
    RMani
    No one thinks they'll go under. They'll just become Porsche; amazing cars that are not special or exclusive.
     
    AlfistaPortoghese likes this.
  21. F430 Driver

    F430 Driver Formula Junior

    Apr 23, 2008
    444
    Central New Jersey

    Ferrari will never be equivalent to Porsche. Pros he makes over 250,000 cars annually. Ferrari 10,000. It would take 25 years of Ferrari production to equal one Porsche year. Pretty sure Ferrari will be much more special. Much more exclusive. Your statement was probably meant as a joke
     
    Drson likes this.
  22. apexdc

    apexdc Karting

    Jan 6, 2008
    147
    Palm Springs, CA
    Full Name:
    David Christian
    First, let me state I love the brand and what made the name what it is today. Having said that, I bought my first Ferrari around 1973. It was a 275 GTB/4 S/N 10531, which means that in twenty YEARS of production, Ferrari had built around 5500 or so cars, including racers. Ok, think about that. 5500 Ferraris in the whole world.

    That is just a bit over half what they will build this year.

    I was at the factory in 1979 and did a tailormade tour there this past summer. When I was there in 79, it was like some local machine shop that was building handcrafted cars at a fairly leisurely pace. Now, it is like NASA.

    There is an entire industry built around just being near the factory. It is another world.

    When I got involved with Ferrari in the early seventies, I was very active in the Ferrari Owners Club centered in Los Angeles. I think it would be safe to say that most of the Ferraris owners in SoCal at the time were in the club.

    I can assure you that back then it didn't make any difference if you were in Newport Beach, Beverly Hills or anywhere else, seeing a Ferrari was a rare event and a big deal. Now, not so much.

    I still love the brand and they build astonishing cars, but it is not even close to being the same.
     
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  23. audi_328

    audi_328 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 13, 2005
    2,421
    NH
    Full Name:
    Audi
    People that put Ferrari down because there are "faster cars out there for less money"...it sorta makes me cringe. They don't get it. I understand that it matters to some people, but I sure am glad I'm not one of them.
     
    Thecadster and F430 Driver like this.
  24. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    This.

    Ferrari has always followed their own path, for better or worse. That usually meant you couldn’t find traces of a Ferrari in any other car. A Ferrari is a Ferrari. A lot of the “build them and they’ll come” attitude was (perhaps rightly) based on this assumption.

    Now they follow the market and their competitors. Two variables that changed a lot over time, in quantity and substance.

    I for one think it’s possible to adapt to the times without losing your identity. Put it in another way; adapting doesn’t necessarily mean trading modernity at the expense of your soul.

    Ferrari has clearly disagreed with me. Not only they won’t go under, they’ll make more money than ever under this new policy of theirs.

    It remains to be seen what this will do to the brand in the long run in terms of what the brand stands for. Putting money first and foremost in most things in life isn’t the best answer, imho. Money should be a consequence in life and in a company, not necessarily always a cause.

    Again, Ferrari seems to disagree with me. Maybe that’s why people like me who, in the past, when lusting for a supercar thought Ferrari and nothing else would fit the bill, are now looking elsewhere.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  25. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    7,698
    Newbury, Berkshire, England
    Full Name:
    John
    'One thing Ferrari understood was the value for a luxury brand of keeping its products scarce, or as Ferrari put it in December 1966: “At the end of the year, we will have sold fewer cars than last year, but made more money.”'
    Luca Dal Monte ​
     
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