458 Lithium ion battery

Items like notes 1. and 2. are why I am not interested in Li batteries. Quality AGMs work very well. You don't need to overthink a disposable item. Low voltage issues with Ferrari electronics are legendary so just keep them charged and maintained. Replace as necessary.

 

Please post a photo of this battery here John

 

Antigravity H6

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Thanx !

 

So, Project Farm on YouTube published an interesting video today where they tested some different 18650 Lithium Ion batteries and it made me think of this thread. Their video really demonstrates how large a difference you can see with some cells, especially when you start applying high amperage loads on them.

Keep in mind these are consumer grade cells primarily:



On the subject of Braille vs. Antigravity, one important thing that is sort of being overlooked here is the difference in consumer grade cells vs. industrial or military grade cells. Below is a decent write up (1st link), although by no means is it exhaustive, which covers it a little bit. If you want to learn more, check out the 2nd link also, which talks more about specific battery chemistries and mentions a few types which are used for Military grade cells, etc.

https://www.designworldonline.com/differences-consumer-industrial-batteries/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery

I don't know what cells either company uses. I've had great luck with Braille in the 458 Italia and feel like they are the top quality product out there. The fact that many top race teams use them says a lot; they also have an extremely low failure rate from what I know. I have never used Antigravity batteries myself and I don't personally have anything against the company or their products, so I can't really speak too much to their product(s). It's probably a reasonable upgrade over the OEM Ferrari battery and/or most traditional car batteries. However, just be careful lulling yourself into a false sense of security here, by thinking that you are buying a battery as good as the Braille i48CS, yet somehow magically you are getting it at a fraction of the cost.

Pretty much, when it comes to batteries, you get what you pay for.

Just off the top of my head, I'm guessing most batteries use probably around 20 cells internally - be it either Antigravity or Braille. You can do the math for yourself, since most high quality 18650 batteries top out at about 3000 to 3500 mAh (milliamp hours). Since there are 1000 milliamps in 1 amp, you can easily convert that to amp hours (Ah) - and see that each cell is providing around 3.0 to 3.5 Ah per cell. So if a battery is able to provide 60 Ah, such as with the Group 48 Braille battery or the Group 48 Antigravity battery, you can figure they must be using at least 20 cells (20 times 3.0 Ah = 60 Ah) in order to comfortably obtain a rating of 60 Ah. The question of cost and quality really boils down to the grade of cells used internally, and not much else.

The 60 Ah Braille Battery is $2499
The 60 Ah Antigravity Battery is $949

If you want to figure out where your money is going, just look at it all from a purely business standpoint. Assuming both companies have something arbitrary for profit margins - let's assume 50% - then for the Antigravity, that means you've got about $475 to throw at raw materials and for Braille, probably more like $1250. For the Antigravity, you've also got to back out the cost of the BMS electronics and their emergency start stuff, which Braille doesn't use. Unless one company is jacking the price way up and/or the other company is just in the business of charity, then most likely the price discrepancy is going to have to do the quality and cost of raw materials (i.e. the cells inside the battery).

Who is using the best cells internally? I don't know for sure. My guess is Braille - and that's why so many race teams use them. If anyone really wants to get to the bottom of it, feel free to send me a new battery from each company and I'll happily volunteer to cut them open and test the individual cells.



I would also advise anyone seriously shopping to contact both companies for yourself; often times that can tell you everything you need to know. How companies conduct themselves; how they speak about their competitors; and/or what information and time they are willing to share in order to educate potential customers - all this can tell you a lot more about a company than just visiting their website. Ferraris really depend heavily on their car battery, given their sophisticated electronics, so it's worth while to go the extra mile, do your research and obtain the absolute best battery that money can buy.

Ray

 

At first I was not keen on the advantages of a Li Ion battery. But in the 458, thanks to RayJohns, I’ve become a believer. The right Li Ion performs better, holds a charge longer without the need for trickle charger, and if you are into weight savings, gives the biggest bang for the buck.
When I specced my upcoming F8 spider, I opted for the factory Li Ion battery option. However, the factory is no longer offering this as an option. No explanation given. I believe the factory was sourcing the LiIon battery from a manufacturer in Hungary.

 

I actually just upgraded the battery in my Toyota Pickup from the PC925 to one of the Braille batteries also.

Once you go with a Lithium Ion battery, it's hard to run anything else.

Ray

 

Both companies use LiFePO4 chemistry, which is safer than what's in your phone, which is LiCoO2.

 

I recently put the Antigravity in the 458. The need for constant charge in MI winter actually led to the failure of the Ferrari charger. Came with the monitor to check the battery voltage via Bluetooth. 1 week, battery voltage still 13.7. Noticed that the car starts MUCH better, starts like I had been driving the car for a while.

 

Yeah, with Lithium Ion it cranks over like it's brand new. The Braille i48CS I had in my 458 would go 2-3 weeks with the car sitting in the garage and still crank over like it was a brand new battery.

Which Antigravity do you have? I noticed they have different amp hour options.

Ray

 

60 Ah. Using their battery tracker from which you can monitor battery voltage via Bluetooth to your phone, the parasitic drain on the Li battery appears to be around .01 V daily,

 

60 Ah is plenty. That's what the Braille i48CS I had in my 458 was rated at as well.

Keep in mind, also, that volts and amps are two different things. Drain would be measured relative to the flow of electrons, which is amps. I'm not sure what the .01 volts per day is trying to show. Voltage levels in Lithium cells don't always provide the most clear indication into remaining capacity, because lithium cells tend to retain their ability to provide a pretty consistent voltage - right up until they suddenly go dead.

Does it show any sort of specific actual voltage number and/or are you able to see any sort of milliamp drain reading?

On my 458, I wired up a DC shunt in order to directly measure the parasitic draw. As I recall, it was something like 50 to 60 milliamps, but I seem to remember it bounced around a bit, as opposed to being a perfectly steady reading.

Another thing to keep in mind here is that the 60 Ah rating is somewhat of an abstract concept. On its surface that means 60 amps being provided for 1 hour. But does that also mean it can provide 600 amps for 6 minutes? 1200 amps for 3 minutes? A lot depends on the state of charge of the cells and also things like outside temperature, etc. But just for the sake of argument, let's assume the 458 draws around 50 milliamps while it's sitting parked...

Okay, so 50 milliamps is 1/20th of an amp, or .050 amps. So that means that if the 458 consumes .050 amps for 24 hours, then one day's worth of parasitic draw is .050 x 24 = 1.2 amp-hours of your battery's 60 Ah capacity. So ten days would be more like 12 Ah, leaving 48 Ah. After two weeks, the car might have drawn 18 Ah, leaving 42 Ah. You get the idea. Let's just guess that the 458 starter draws 500-600 amps when cranking; this means at 42 Ah, you could turn the starter - for the brief moment it takes to fire up the 458 - no problem (600 amps x 2 seconds / 3600 = only .333 Ah consumed to start the motor).

The real number you want to know here is the parasitic current draw from the car's ECU's and that's going to be in milliamps, not volts. Voltage reading don't help all that much when it comes to battery capacity.

Ray

 

Reviving this thread. I see Antigravity has 60AH battery as well for the 458. They told me the form factor is identical so should be a direct drop in for the OEM battery. I read many in this thread went for the 60AH battery but for a 2.5 lb penalty I'll take the 50% add'l amp hours since the 458 is a power vampire.

Has anyone installed the 60AH Antigravity in their 458? Recommend?

https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-h6-rs/

Also, I'm planning on using the Ctek LifePo4 charger (linked below) as the battery tender. Does this require I directly hook up the Ctek eyelets to the battery terminals or can I use the 458 charging port located on the passenger side as I do now with the OEM? Was concerned the LifePo4 charger might damage something if the stock ferrari charge port is going through other electronics in the car.

(Ctek LifePo4 charger I plan to use)
https://amzn.to/3kZxpvU

Thanks.

 

Plenty of 458's out there with the AntiG H6 60ah battery. It is plug and play as they say. Use one of these adapters with the CTek charger, and you can use the charge port you use for the OE tender.
https://www.juicemyride.com/products/ferrari-458-adapter-only

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Thanks. I already have that adapter purchased here from wkumari (link below) so should be ok if there is nothing intercepting the voltage on its way to the battery

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/yabtp-making-the-battery-conditioner-connected-light.347563/page-5

 

I have two Braille Lithium Ion batteries in my 360 (in addition to an Optima Red). Awesome batteries.

 

I get the weight savings with lithium batteries but in my mind the downsides outweigh their benefits for starting batteries. To get close to the advertised charge cycles you need to store them at 50-60% capacity. If you float them at 100% like we do with AGMs, longevity may not be any better than AGM. If you start the car with the battery at 50% it will overheat/burn out your alternator (lithium batteries have very little internal resistance when discharged). In addition, when the BMS takes the battery offline (e.g. voltage high) it will kill your alternator unless you install an appropriate protection device that deals with the back EMF voltage spike due to the disconnect.

 

I installed an Anti Gravity in my F430 tonight and noticed it was made in China vs. the Braille which is made in the USA. That could contribute to the cost disparity.

 

Hi mate

do you have Instagram? I’m thinking about getting a lithium battery for the 458. Got a link? I’m in the Uk too - cheers!

 

I, for myself, changed my (working) battery, just to prevent any issue, with a new AGM FIAMM for the cost of about 120USD in January this year.
I realised the car (a 2013 built) had the original lead-acid battery still in (meaning 8/9yrs) and I can tell it remained locked with no tender/charger plugged during the Covid lockdown for more than 2 months, and the car started without charging the battery after that (only issue was, don't ask why, the parking brake stayed on for a few ON/OFF cycles). Maybe I picked the lucky horse (and in fact I will try my best to keep it).
All in all I can't agree more with you and stick to old-school heavy things.
I am not saying that Li batteries aren't better in some respects, and sure they are lighter, but I have my doubts when return over spent is considered. Probably having a plug for a tender in the garage makes a paramount difference here in favour of Li, even if my experience proves there is chance you can have a Pb battery, and still live happily without.