Thoughts on adding ATF to engine oil? | FerrariChat

Thoughts on adding ATF to engine oil?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by rpissm, Mar 13, 2020.

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  1. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Full Name:
    Joe
    Given the fact that our cars don't run very many miles, are old, and always run rich, what are your thoughts on adding a quart of automatic transmission fluid to the engine oil about 50 miles before doing an oil change? The theory would be that the detergents in the ATF would help clean out sludge in advance of the oil change? Anyone tried that?

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  2. Capt. Rich

    Capt. Rich Karting

    Jun 9, 2008
    238
    Palm City, Fl.
    Full Name:
    Richard Baumgart
    It maybe just a placebo but I use Marvel Mystery oil. I know people who add ATF to older diesels.
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    #3 Rifledriver, Mar 14, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
    If it runs rich it should be fixed. That is in no way a normal, acceptable condition.

    Modern oils have everything needed in them, hard to believe but the petrochemical engineers who formulate them are pretty smart and any home brew modifications are just dumb. Modern oil has more detergent in it that ever before and need it less than anytime in history so I have no idea what problem you hope to cure.

    The enemy of oil in your car is not getting hot enough regularly, with 3+ gallons of oil short trips kill it and no additive known to man can cure that.
     
  4. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    Aug 29, 2008
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    Why do people try to second guess what is needed? Old ways before modern detergent oil.
     
  5. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Not ATF.... STP... the racer’s edge.
    ;)

     
  6. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Aug 7, 2012
    3,322
    Tallahassee, FL
    Or, just remove the oil pan/baffle and clean the sludge. Amazing what some solvent and a brush can do. ;)
     
  7. clinton

    clinton Rookie

    Feb 16, 2013
    39
    Houston
  8. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Every engine gets sludge, if maintenance is ignored.
     
  9. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
    1,619
    Marvel is used a lot in aircraft. I run it in piston helicopters. Its a really good additive used correctly


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  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    And just what does it provably achieve that the correct unadulterated oil does not? I am not big on doing this but it has been such a wives tale for so long I am going to ask for some kind of proof as in a real lab grade study of its affects.

    I know chemical engineers who have spent their lives formulating motor oil for all types of applications and if it was beneficial they would be pouring it in.
     
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  11. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,625
    Dubai / Bologna
    30 years and 60,000 km later (much by me over the last 12 years) even after correcting years of neglect by previous owners, I have never found any residue or sludge in my TR and I have taken that engine pretty far apart to check valves, change old seals, etc.

    Annual fluid changes seem to be enough, along with an engine out service every 5 years, but I drive the car at least an hour every time I take it out. I would rather spend my efforts on actual maintenance. If you are noticing a lot of black thick residue when you drain the oil, your car might have other issues. Generally, the year old oil drained from my car looks quite clean when it comes out. I could probably use it in my Toyota.
     
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  12. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
    1,619
    Brian, We can't use detergent oil in these air cooled engines. Ashless Shell that is not used in automobiles. I would not run it in Ferrari's but I do mix the proper amount in av fuel to give it back some lubricant that regular fuels have in it when I use av in muscle cars. Its an extremely dry fuel.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    So this conversation is about oil additives and you are putting it in the gas but didn't bother with bringing that up?

    Stone age piston aviation motors burn so much oil what is a little more?
     
  14. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
    1,619
    #14 MOSS, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
    Haha, I am talking about brand new piston helicopters and I added that I add Marvel to av fuel/gas when running it in auto engines to give it upper cylinder lubricant needed. Its good stuff used for the proper application. Brian I am a big fan of yours so no need to ride my ass on the subject. AV fuel is around 108 octane and is very dry fuel. I like Marvel. I also said no need to run it in our Ferrari's but it darn sure won't hurt older engines and could be beneficial to some regard. If you choose to disagree with me then I am okay with it.
     
  15. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Hey... mixing oil in the gas works great.... in my chainsaw.
     
  16. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
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    #16 MOSS, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
    Is that the limit of your knowledge on the subject? I take it that it is. Some people like to run their mouth on every subject on this board whether it is educated or not. Whether something intelligent is being said or not. Yes, I'm talking about you. Are you a helicopter pilot? no Do you work on aviation engines? no Do you know anything about the properties of aviation 100 LL fuel? no Go play with your weed eater.
     
  17. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
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  18. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Everybody calm down! Marvel oil DOES have at least two good applications in older cars that we have been using for over 40 years:

    1. Moss is correct, in that it adds "lubricity" to today's fuels. We have found adding Marvel oil to the gas in older Ferrari's and other cars to have a very positive effect on the operation of both the mechanical and electric fuel pumps. The valves in these pumps were designed to use "oil" in the fuel to help seal them to their seats. Today's fuels are so "dry" these pumps can fail to keep up when they get hot and much of this is due to the "dryness" of today's fuels. The Marvel oil adds enough "oiliness" to the fuel to help the valves seal. We have found much better pump operation with the Marvel oil.

    2. When added to the fuel in old cars using "flat head" engines, the added "lubricity" helps guard against sticking valves. In a flat head, the valves run "upside down" compared to modern engines. The valves never have any oil running "down" the guides to keep the valve/guide lubricated and these older motors can stick valves when the are allowed to set for a time. Again the Marvel oil adds enough "lubricity" to keep the valve lubricated in it's guide and no sticking valves.

    Interestingly, adding oil to the fuel in Italian engines is not new. At Sebring in 1957, Maserati was having all sorts of fuel pump trouble in the Florida heat. Sebring was contracted to Amoco, which at that time was marketing an "unleaded" gasoline and using it for race fuel at the event. Once Maserati was aware of this, they started adding one quart of motor oil to each 40 gallon tank of fuel for the 450S and 300S, and the fuel pump problems disappeared.
     
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  19. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Are you guys trying to say “high rvp” by using the artistic term ‘dry’?

    I don’t know too many artistic terms.
     
  20. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    vincenzo: I don't think my comments were related to reid vapor pressure. I was trying to address how "oily" the fuel was. Today's gasoline has almost no lubricating ability. If you let it evaporate on your hand, there is no oily film remaining. In the 1950-60s, gas left an oily residue when it evaporated. This "oil" is what lubricated the fuel pump valves and seats and also the engine intake valves and seats, as well as the guides in flathead motors.
     
  21. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    #21 vincenzo, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
    Wasn’t lubricity taken care of by the lead additive?

    High rvp fuels tend to flash when hot. Is that the reason why the fuel pumps quit? Essentially by cavitation? Depends on the type of pump....

    Oily residue infers a sloppy cut in the frac tower. A wide range of molecule sizes. Could be.... ‘back in the day’.
     
  22. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3
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    Jun 19, 2012
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    Vicenzo: Lead lubricates valve "seats" not stems. Yes, it is true that today's fuels also boil at lower temps than the fuels of yesterday, and that also effects cavitation in the pumps and lines with high engine temps. However what I stated about the need for the fuel pump valves to seal is true. If you have not had 250/330 fuel pumps apart, you may not understand how they work and the need for some sort of "lubrication" on the pump inlet and outlet valves.
     
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