12 years old Belts....look! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

12 years old Belts....look!

Discussion in '308/328' started by 11506apollo, Mar 17, 2020.

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  1. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    I also get really tired of "experts" telling me belts are tires.
     
  2. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    308 milano likes this.
  3. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    What is your expertise in rubber chemistry?
     
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  4. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Your missing the point.
     
  5. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    That you're no "expert" either?
     
  6. offtheworkigo

    offtheworkigo Karting

    Feb 23, 2016
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    Things are slow so I replacing my belts on my 85 308qv. They are 8 years old and about 8,000 miles. This is my first time. I have replaced many many belts on other cars. So I have no problem doing my car. Here's my problem. Missing the timing protection cover on both sides according to the diagram. When I look at pictures of other engines I don't see them. Part #s 117628 and 117627 # 10 and #11. My car being a late 85 didn't come with them or when the belts where changed at sometime they removed them for some reason. I can see they could stop things from getting into the belt because the gears are exposed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. ferrariowner

    ferrariowner Formula 3

    Feb 21, 2014
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    My 85 Euro QV did not come with the covers either.
     
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  8. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Before dismissing my opinion I’ll qualify my qualifications. Primarily in one of my companies I lead the engineering team that specializes in automotive including OEM supply to SAE standards. Professionally I regularly consult with powertrain engineers and a friend of mine even happens to run a billion dollar company that happens to hold the patent on the serpentine belt tensioner. Needless to say we have discussed Ferrari belt intervals with him which has shaped my opinion.

    Aside to this I have been racing for close to 30 years and have tons of experience with preventative maintenance, parts life’ing, and forensic analysis after failures. Throw on that I do all my own service on a small fleet of Italian exotics including undertaking an FCA National 100 point scoring restoration where I did most of the work (not a checkbook restoration).

    While I respect Brian’s breadth of experience my opinion comes on the back of a decent amount of relevant real world experience which is why I choose to share it.
     
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  9. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    My very late 84 Euro QV doesn't have them either.
     
  10. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    That bracket looks far from virgin and would not represent a baseline for failure. Who knows the history there.
     
  11. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Mitchell Le
    My experience with Euro (limited) and US (a lot) versions is they both came with the backing cover plates. I generally applaud owners doing their own work so good luck with your timing belt job. One piece of advise: when you are done with the timing belts and everything is buttoned back up, put the main pulley back and spin the engine over a few times and recheck timing assembly marks on the cams.

    As for correct cam timing, search for Rifledriver posting on how to cam time a 308qv without a degree wheel. It's cool.
     
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  12. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    You claimed that no experts had actually seen a belt failure, and that they don't actually happen. I pointed out that Rifledriver has posted many times that he has seen many belt failures (not new belts, either).

    Regardless of whether you like the analogy to tires or not, how do you respond to Brian's statement that he has seen many broken belts and resultant trashed engines? Do you still insist that nobody has ever actually seen or experienced a broken belt?
     
  13. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Please pay attention: I didn't write that you have to check your car every 8 years… yes, inspection, maintenance, service every year: at least when you change fluids you have to check all the car, more or less. On a 40 years old car everything can fail, of course, but tensioners and camshafts belts usually are among the moste reliable of what installed on the car. I had a rusted diff that I had to throw away, some Fuel injection parts that made me crazy, rust, water leak in the side GTB Windows, but NEVER had a belt problem, nor in the 21 years old one. As said, the 21 years old belt was sold to the Glorious and important Franchorchamp Motors Ferrari Dealership, that told me "no problem if the truck driver will drive the car for some meters with such an old belt, as he won't rev up 7500 RPM, he will drive the car for some monites only while putting it into the lorry and so the belt won't fail". They already had paid me the car and I think they were not stupid at all: they serviced the car as soon as they received it, of course, but 308 belts are very strong and reliables. This doesn't mean a belt last 21 years, but 8-10, yes.

    And I want to tell also this: I inspected MANY 208-308-328 before buying my ones, several for friends too. The fun things is that sometimes you can find much below average really bad cars, full of rust, with destroyed interiors, oil and water leaks everywhere, lack of compression in some cylinders, with missing and/or wrong pieces, smelling badly of gasoline, but every time their owners told me "sir, I installed a new belt three months ago". Or last year, and so on. Why this belt obsession? What is the purporse of a new belt on a car that no more has compression or low oil pressure? There are a ton of things to service on a 308: let's rest the belts and change what it needs!

    ciao
     
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  14. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 World Champ
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  15. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    If a nut (or a stone, even worse) goes between the belt and the gear, very likely it will breat ik, new or 20 years old the belt is. Yes, belts fail: but not the ones with less than 10 years. If they do, there was a mistake when they were installed. One thing is a fact: new belts badly installed fail much more than the 20 years old ones.

    ciao
     
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  16. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    No. The total lack of logical thinking. If tires are belts in the sense that the rubber ages with time, hardens, crack....., then you have to conclude that belts are belts as well. I.e. a Honda, Toyota, old BMW, Mazdas.... for any vehicle that uses timing belts, belts are belts. Ferrari belts aren't unique. All belts will suffer the effects of age. Thus, if hundreds of thousands, more like millions of Honda, etc, are driving around on 5, 10 15 year old belts and seldom failing, then it can only be concluded that age isn't a significant factor in belt failure. If you are going to argue about the effects of age you can not come back and say Ferraris are not Hondas, etc, because belts are belts, are tires.... And then we have to include V belts and serpentine belts as well.
     
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  17. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    You are officially one of those "experts" now preaching about belts and tires that you can't stand around here.

    The irony is delicious.
     
  18. moysiuan

    moysiuan F1 Rookie
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    I think it is common wisdom that the belt change is really done to deal with the bearings failing (and also looking at the water pump, idler bearings as well), so inspecting the bearings is the main event? Absent service intervals specified by the manufacturer, the belts will last minimum 6 years or 60,000 miles - that is what the manufacturer of the belts say. Many cars have a service intervals of 6 to 10 years, and 60,000 to 100,000 miles. But since all the labour to get in there and inspect bearings is so high, and the belts are quite cheap, replacing them as a routine is sensible. But it would not surprise me if Ferrari's driven regularly with belts lasting 10 years and still looking good would be unusual. The problem is, all belts will break and you don't know when. In an interference clearance engine, the cost/benefit of trying to extract the max use out of a belt is a false economy. But for those who want to take a calculated risk, going 6 to 10 years on a Ferrari, with some inspections and being aware of what bearing noise sounds like, is not irrational.
     
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  19. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    A new correctly-installed belt is better than both.
     
  20. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Just saying Tommy, a rose is a rose is a rose. Don't need to be an expert to connect the dots. :)
     
  21. waymar

    waymar Formula 3

    Sep 2, 2008
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    FWIW my ‘82 308GTSI has a 15k interval on valve adjustment. I replace the cam seals at that time so I also replace the T belts. I put on about 3-5k miles a year or more. Just saying......
     
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  22. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
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    Who says no: a fully rebuilt car (with engine, fuel system, wiring harness, injection system, cooling system, suspension joints, shock adsorbers, brakes, brake booster, steering rack, gear synchros, tyres, lights, instrumenst, A/C and so on) even better.

    ciao
     
  23. JV's89

    JV's89 F1 Veteran
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    Jul 18, 2006
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    Regardless of which side of the timing belt argument you support, you must admit it's comical how predictable the thread trajectory is.

    Beats the **** out of another Corona virus discussion.

    Enjoy the distraction fellas, I'm sure we can all use one!
     
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  24. GordonC

    GordonC F1 Rookie
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    John, your "expert" status is seriously at risk here - I called you out because you claimed, more than once, that no experts have actually seen a car with a broken timing belt. I quoted Rifledriver from 2014 stating that he has seen many cars with broken timing belts (not newly installed belts, either).

    So obviously your statement that no experts have ever encountered a broken timing belt is false - would you care to acknowledge that and retract your incorrect claim, or are you going to continue to be pig-headed and stick with your claim, ignoring actual facts?

    Let's put a marker here, since you have so far ignored the question - a lack of response to this direct challenge will indicate that you're being obstinate and ignoring actual facts, and that YOUR claim that experts have never encountered a broken timing belt is the actual falsehood.
     
  25. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Ok, here's a different take. We all know that a 308 engine is basically two 4 cylinder engines running independently on the dam crank. So let's compare

    1999 Miata MX 5 1985 Ferrar 308 QV

    Cams DOHC DOHC

    Valve 4V 4V

    Compression 9.5:1 8.6:1

    HP@ 140@6500 235@6800

    Displacement 1.8L 2.97L

    HP/L 77.8 79.1

    Cam Drive Belt Belt

    Lifters Solid Solid

    As you can see, not a lot of difference when you break it down. Each bank of a 308 is pretty close to a Miata engine. Having owned several Miata, the last one for over 10 years/65,000 miles, stored winters, and never though of changing the belt, nor did any of the fellow owners I knew when I was a member of the Miata club. Additionally, Miatas are often modified and super or turbo charged and run up to a couple of hundred HP with 7000 rpm red line. And still no one worried about belt changes. So when people laugh at such comparisons without knowing the numbers I have to laugh. I always hear excuses like the Ferrari bearing work harder due to higher RPM. NO! Ther eis always some excuse. But if but if 308 belts are so much more susceptible to failure it can onlt be due to one thing, poor engineering/design by Ferrari.
     

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