http://www.members.iinet.net.au/[email protected]/FerrariF355Spider/Fig49_1998_Roof_Electronics_1998.gif Ian did you make this schematic? You realize what you got there is the equivalence of identifying the genetic material to the coronavirus. I have been trying to purchase the seats potentiometer to no avail. Someone is hoarding them off ebay. I bet there a bunch laying around in someone garage next to 100 rolls of toilet paper. That is roughly 100 lines in the control circuit. Translating every line will take weeks. I spent so far an hour scanning the input devices. As I suspected, the “Top Control Unit” is nothing more than a dummy unit relaying inputs. Now Im sure the Slow Down Light ECU works in the same manner. Thats another subject. There are several ways to tackle this. Maintain all ECU and inputs devices, maintain ECU and some inputs devices or bypass the Top Control Unit and input devices entirely. Looking at these options, we also need to consider the financial plausibility and users electrical, mechanical skill. Maintaining the use of the Top Control Unit and all input devices mean identifying all devices, reverse engineer and replace with better designs. According to the schematic, most of the inputs devices are very simple. Ease of access maybe the issue. But what appears to be troublesome is the seats potentiometers. I am baffled why Ferrari chose that method. The top Controller doesn’t know resistance. It only needs to know if the seats are far enough forward or backward. Theres a better way to achieve that. I really need to pick one up to do electrical measurements and I cant even find one. Maintain use of the Top Control Unit and some devices. Although plausible, I would not go this rout. All input devices sit in one of two state relevant to the top either in close or open position. Because the top activation, open or close depends on the devices in one or the other position, bypassing those devices is possible. We would have to manually change the position of those devices. That means adding an external relay and a switch. Rewiring is required. Completely bypass the Top Control Unit and inputs devices. This is very easy to do. It does involve a bit of requiring. While the other inputs are more of a safety check, the seats do need to move forward for the top to go behind it. Option 3 is the easiest to tackle. Just need to relocate two wires to the top(up,down) switch. Its the first step. Once tested and approved, add the seats movement. So now who has the mechanical skill and willing to tackle this? Just need access to the Top Control Unit and relocate 4 wires. I have not seen what it looks like in person. If the wires are bundled in a connector, the four wires have to be identify, mark and cut. They can always splice back together.
As far as I know, the coronavirus genetic code was deciphered in a couple of weeks. I found it rather surprising to hear that it will take more than a year to produce an actual cure after deciphering the code. Not unlike the virus, the diagram probably took a few weeks to put together. Finding a cure for the roof will take a little longer and a lot more effort. Personally I would stick with placebo... just fix the potentiometer with the tips on the forum. I can't claim too much credit for the diagram. Most of it is in the WSM. I just added a few colours and labels. However, the finer points required some significant effort and cost (purchasing the paper wiring diagrams and pulling my own car to pieces to do some wiring checks between the microswitches and the Window Controller). The paper wiring diagrams revealed some details on power supplies which were missing in the WSM. Like all computers, the Roof Controller is a neat solution to a dog's breakfast of wires, relays and switches. I'm sure the controller can be reverse engineered for a few hundred thousand dollars (see message thread on the F1 TCU). https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/hacking-the-f1-tcu.603531/ As you say, some of the logic is for safety (protecting the car and the occupants). The handbrake input is to stop you opening the roof with the vehicle moving (they assume the handbrake won't be set when the vehicle is moving) and the other inputs are to stop you damaging the windows, paintwork and leather. The major weaknesses of the system seems to be the potentiometers and the need to use an SD tool to recalibrate the seats. There was a gentleman working on a 3D printed version of the potentiometer part which usually breaks. The beta tests were successful, so I'm surprised he didn't put the kit on eBay by now. I should give him a call and find out what happened.
In any case, that schematic save a lot of trouble shooting work as I have been trying to get down and dirty on it. I know what the Control Unit is doing. I wasn't sure of the method because there are several ways to achieve the same outcome. All I had was a theory and no way to confirm and taking my car apart was out the question. What I find amusing and interesting at the same time, European electronics, electrical scheme of things follow the Conventional theory as suppose to the Electron Theory. Here in the states, electron Theory is the prevalent method. Im not complaining. It just so happen the Euro method makes bypassing the Control Unit and input devices much easier. In that regard, the entire Control and devices can be bypassed with 4 wires while maintaining the use of top up/down switch. The seats movement is a concern because they have to be out the way. You would have to move it manually. An ideal setup is have the seats move to the respective position when the top is activated. This require an external control unit. It can be done. In fact I can put it together in an hour. Finding the right parts I need may take longer. Qavion, if you are inclined to experiment with the C.U. and input devices bypass let me know. I almost forgot, Bruce, the veteran Stooge is very knowledgable about the 355 mechanical. if you happen to read this and up to task, I'll send you the detail.
Eureka, line ladder is finished. I haven't debunk the order of operation yet. Will do that later. So heres the order of operation. Push top down button and hold down. Seats move forward. They reach a set position and stop. Immediately top goes down. Push top up button and hold top goes up and close. Seats go back to set position. The S in the circle is the seat motors. The M in the circle is the top motor. According to Qavion schematic theres no need to add the solenoid into the circuit because it opens when ignition is in position 1 and 2. Eureka it is. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Very cool. Requiring the doors be open with yes/no signal from door light switch would take windows out of the equation. Better solution than making it manual.
Isn't having to open both doors to operate the roof a backwards step? The windows drop automatically when you crack the roof open. This stops the tops of the windows hitting the roof mechanism as you pull back on the roof. The windows then freeze until the roof is fully down or the roof is relatched closed. You can't really take the windows out of the equation. The Window Controller does the automatic window dropping. I've proven this by disconnecting the Roof Controller completely.
Some good news... The 3D printed repair kit should be on the market in one or two weeks. I'll let everyone know when the ad is posted on eBay
After looking at the schematic many times over, the inner working of the RC is much clearer. The Box itself is not complicated. It acts as a central hub rerouting volts and amp. Its complexity is the number of input devices and the troubles it receives. The only input essential to the top movement is the seats function. The rest are safety measures or user reminder. Below are some inputs and their purpose. They do not physically interfere with top movement and as such they can be bypassed for the PURPOSE OF TROUBLESHOOTING AND TESTING the top operation. 1. Pin B14 – Micro roof sw. on left secondary piston. Take both wires, tapes them electrically isolated. 2. Pin B10 , B09 - Passenger , driver door SW. The roof open command will not work if passenger door is open. Remove both wires and tape them together electrically. 3. Pin B12 – Hand brake. This SW. ensure that hand brake is activation to keep the car from moving. Remove wires and tape together electrically. 4. Pin B05 – All this does is sound a buzzer when the latch is unlocked. Remove both wires and tape together electrically. 5. Pin B07, B08 – Windows open status. Remove these wires. Tape each pair together electrically. 6. Pin B04 - I’m not sure what this does. I believe it tell the RC top disengaged. Remove wires and tape electrically isolated. For the purpose of troubleshooting and testing, these common trouble points can be bypassed individually and perform roof top operation or all together. Once the problem is identified, all devices should be place in their original operation. The main extension piston inputs are more challenging to troubleshoot with method above because each switch has two positions depending on top opens or close. The top motors and relay switching setup need a separate Roof Control box to test. I am working on that. Hopefully I will have soon and drop it off to Plugit for testing. Then maybe add the seats function to the test RC box. OK folks have fun troubleshooting and testing the spider top. Remember to always return all devices to original manufacture operation.
Plugzit that is item #5. Its done. Well hurry up with that printer. You can't run a business without a secure supply chain. But I think most of us love the seats potentiometer too much to replace it with a $1 3D printer design.
Didn't Ferrari already solve the problem? The emergency switch. So you push the top down button and the seats move forward, stop and the top goes down. Then what.How do the seats move back to the driving position? Push the top up button and the top goes up and the seats move back. But the top can't go up until the seats are moved forward. This seems to assume the seats are already forward. So, if you put the top down you have to move the seats back manually and if you want to put the top up you have the move the seats forward manually? Mine as well just used the emergency switch and move the seats manually before and after top operation. Sorry Roth, I'm just not getting the point of this.
Well, his printers are a little busy at the moment, producing medical equipment which is assisting in the war against COVID19. The 3D printed component is not replacing the potentiometer, just part of the internals. The printed part/s will be significantly more expensive than $1, but significantly cheaper than the hundreds of dollars scalpers are charging for the often NLA potentiometers. I was involved in the testing of some beta versions (and the 3D assembly tool required). A lot of R&D was involved. It was not just a matter of scanning and printing. Also, several used potentiometers had to be acquired for testing purposes. Some inputs help with sequencing through the various modes. Note that the box also controls various time delays. F355RoofHydraulicDiagram
Probably the roof fully down switch triggers this. If the windows have been fully raised with the roof down, the Window Controller should drop the windows 2" just as the roof leaves its fully down position. A while ago, there was someone on the forum looking at wiring up the roof switch to the emergency switches. (EDIT: Sorry, misread the comments. Had to re-edit my message)
Hey John, glad to see you come out once in awhile. Social distancing doesn’t apply to social media or in this case web forum. And yes Ferrari did that already but they added a host of other input devices into the Roof Control box to go with it. Anyone of those go bad, it becomes a wild goose chase trying to find the culprit. Had Ferrari take one extra step indentifying all the input devices into a module of error lights at the design stag it would help. But they didn’t and so here we are chasing goose, rabbits and sometimes imaginary fairies. Now, we have a few choices. Continue using the Roof Control box, all its input devices and go on a fishing expedition every time it stops working or keep only what is crucial to the top opening and closing. Thanks to QaVion schematic, we have that choice. It seems often a thread about the spider top not working comes up. My first intention (for testing only) is rewire to operate the roof irrespective of all input devices. Then add the seats movement to the wiring and go from there. It completely bypasses the Roof Control box. So yes the roof and seats would do the same thing the way the RC box have them do but without the box. Hence eliminating all the troublesome input devices The 800 pounds gorilla in the spider top quack mire. So John maybe you or someone can chime in on this. I need to verify a few things. With the connector on the potentiometer disconnected and key out. Rotate the potentiometer wheel until it stops. Doesn’t matter which way you turn. Then turn the potentiometer to the opposite direction until it stops and do the same reading for each wire. 6 readings. Two per wire. Then do same readings with ignition on in position II. 1. What is the voltage on the yellow wire to “ground”? 2. What is the voltage on the blue wire to “ground”? 3. What is the voltage on the brown wire to “ground”? When ignition key in position two. 1. What is the voltage on the yellow wire to “ground”? 2. What is the voltage on the blue wire to “ground”? 3. What is the voltage on the brown wire to “ground”? These readings explain what the Roof Control does and how to remedy it and maintain seats function.
Not sure where you're getting those wire colours from, Roth. HG (grey-yellow), NL (black-blue), HL (grey-blue) and black (earth) wires are going to the potentiometer. HG will be a fixed voltage (could be 5 or 12 volts, I suppose). We know the approximate potentiometer resistance ranges from previous forum posts. With the seats moving forward, the voltage going back to the controller should reduce. Seat problems can often be diagnosed by what stage the roof opening/closing gets to. Also, the inputs to the controller are either voltages, open or closed circuits or resistance values which can be measured at the connectors or at the sensors. I can't say the controller has many issues other than burnt out circuit board tracks and faulty seat control relays. The recall that the relays can be found if you look long enough with Google. If all else fails, take it to an indy or dealer with an SD tool. Of course, it's good to know the precise logic for operation. It may help a little with diagnostics. . e.g. are both primary actuator retract limit switches required for the secondary solenoid valve to operate during closing? Is seat return-to-driving position movement (after roof opening) triggered by the roof fully down switch or a combination of primary actuator switches and fully down switch?
I'm not messing with my seat pots because my top has work flawlessly for 7 years and I'm not going to play with it. Like I said, you can always use the emergency switch if needed. And you don't even have to move the seats, just get out of the car and tilt them forward. Since you have to get out of the car to put on or remove the leather top cover you could mount the emergency switch on the back of the driver's seat and operate the top from outside the car.
QaVion, Im referring to the color of the wires in the schematic. The actual color is not important as long as we make a note of them. Reason for the voltage readings, the schematic shows a constant hot going to the RC and an ignition switched hot. The potentiometers has a hot going to them as well as a “ground” wire on opposite ends. For the purpose of knowing if the seats are forward enough, its electrically idiotic to use a potentiometer unless theres another purpose. That is what I am trying to figure out. By the way your spider isn't working if i remember correctly. john, We could rewire the emergency switch to the back of the seat or anywhere. We could make the top opens via a remote control. We could make it manual. We could do a lot of things. That is where we are different. Everyone has a fetish. Mine is move the seats forward. The top goes down. Then the seats go back. I like your idea though, mount the switch somewhere ideally near the driver door opening so I can stand outside with the door opens and watch the seats go forward, the top goes down and seats back again. That would be cool.
As John mentioned, part of the function of the potentiometer is to return the seat to the memorised driving/last position. I guess you could say using the potentiometer kills two birds with one stone. It's used for driver position and safe roof lowering/raising position (it's not really necessary to run the seat to it's mechanical endstops to put the roof up/down). The safe roof lowering position could be achieved with a microswitch, but not the driver's/last position.
Hi all, There are many threads covering the spider roof, but this one seems the most appropriate for my issue. I'm trying to get the roof working properly, although this could become the one job I have to give up on. Symptoms are that the roof goes down fine, seats move, then the actuators kick in and lower the roof. The pump doesn't stop when its lowered, so clearly there is an issue somewhere on the piston extended microswitches, since I imagine the pump should stop and the seats start returning to original position, which they don't. On raising, the roof works fine, but again the pump doesn't stop (unless you release the switch). Using Ian's fantastic wiring diagram, I've confirmed that both piston microswitches close, therefore take the pins on the roof controller low, but I would then expect the solenoid valve pin on the controller to also go low to negative? (which it isn't). I'm assuming on a fully working roof, this is where the fluid would be switched via the solenoid to the secondary pistons, therefore its valid that the pump would still try to run when the main pistons have fully compressed. Looking inside the controller, there is evidence of repair/resoldering to the relays which control the seats, so someone has been playing in the past. The solenoid pin connects to a power transistor, so I'm going to try and replace/test that first. Just interested if there is anyone on here that has also made any progress on diagnosing/repairing these controllers. Have included some pictures in case others are interested in seeing whats inside the controller box. Thanks Paul Image Unavailable, Please Login View attachment 3220726 View attachment 3220727
I'm not sure if automatic seat (return) operation relies on the internal microswitches in the pistons or the microswitch on the bottom of the piston slider plate ("Sx") or both. Similarly, the pump pump not stopping may be a combination of piston internal switches and slider plate switch. The windows are definitely (only) tied to the slider plate switch "Sx", so if the windows go up with the roof down, Sx should be ok. For info... The switch should be electrically open with the roof fully down, otherwise closed. There does seem to be a lot not happening here. It's hard to imagine that it is linked to a single failure (unless it's ECU chip-related). Is it possible to trace the pump motor relay control wires to a specific ECU chip or are the control wires attached to something more basic, like transistors? i.e. the wires on pins A1 and A2.
For reference: Latest roof electrical diagram here: (5.2) https://www.dropbox.com/t/omeLnQlnJhrtunUZ hydraulic diagram here: https://www.dropbox.com/t/4iN2zSzdjDcaV7BA Links expire in 7 days.
Thanks Ian. A few things I'll look at next weekend. The secondary cylinders are definitely not working, which I believe is owing to the solenoid not activating. I said at the start of my post that this may turn out to be the job I give up on, but since I'm not someone who gives up easily... I have an alternative idea. Why don't I just make my own replacement controller! Back in 1997 this would have been a crazy statement, but we now have the Arduino Due which has 54 binary inputs/outputs and some analogue inputs. With some coding of the roof logic, additional power transistors, relays and some resistors... It should work. What I really need though are the male multi connectors which match the car, since I'd rather not cut them off. Anyone have any sources? I'll keep you all updated.
