Old vs New Ferrari Build Quality | FerrariChat

Old vs New Ferrari Build Quality

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Booker, Apr 8, 2020.

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  1. Booker

    Booker Formula 3
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  2. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

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    Speaking as a former owner of 3 328s and a current owner of a 430, I can say 328s are quite reliable, probably the most reliable Ferrari through at least the year 2000. Some of the other models from that era are pretty bad so you can't make a blanket statement about old vs new when you are just cherry picking the best older model. I bought my 430 (3 pedal coupe) in 2005. It now has 30K+ miles. It has been, by far, the cheapest Ferrari I have ever owned in terms of maintenance and repairs. I do not have the sticky button issues. Perhaps convertibles are more likely to suffer this. My car does not have the optional nav system which even then was pretty sucky. My car does not have any obsolete infotainment. I can't speak for newer models since none offer a stick and therefore don't interest me.

    Dave
     
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  3. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #3 AlfistaPortoghese, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    First of all: great article, Jack. Eloquent and to the point. Congrats.

    Ferraris nowadays are much more evolved, comfortable, versatile, user-friendly, fast and refined. I owned a Mondial. I have a 458 now. They’re not even from the same galaxy. The earliest Ferrari I’ve ever been in was a 1973 Dino 246 and the most recent, an F8 Tributo.

    Now... Are modern Ferraris more durable than they were in the 70s, 80s and early 90s?

    Mechanically, I believe they are. Modern Ferraris are much easier and cheaper to maintain. Most things in this life last, if one is willing and able to take care of them in a timely fashion. The only “impediment” is software updates to clear codes and other stuff, that older cars didn’t have.

    In terms of the interior materials used, I think today’s Ferraris are by far more beautiful, ergonomic, functional... But less durable. Older Ferraris were built inside like tanks. I don’t get the same feeling in a modern Ferrari. I’m always afraid of scratching or otherwise inadvertently damage the leather or carbon fiber in my car’s cabin.

    In any case, I think this is an industry-wide trend. Modern cars as a whole are much nicer and have clearly evolved in some aspects, at the expense of other things like durability. Only time will tell, but it’s a great talking point.

    Generally speaking, classic car fans and modern Ferrari owners are two different tribes. I am of the opinion that what we’ve gained over time in a Ferrari, that culminates in this decade’s cars (California, 458, 488, F8, FF, F12, 812, GTC4Lusso), far outweighs any aspects we may have lost along the way to get where we are now.

    Kindest regards,

    Nuno.
     
  4. Booker

    Booker Formula 3
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    This point is something I wanted to elaborate on, but I felt I risked diverging too far away from the topic. As my father-in-law says (also a big car person), today's cars are vastly improved in general compared to older cars. It is not just Ferrari that is using more parts and plastics and technologies. That's why I concluded that the people most affected by 'durability' of newer cars are the DIY mechanics. This too is common across the entire industry
     
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  5. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    those saying the modern Ferraris are cheaper? more reliable for how many years? expense of F1 systems, variators, roof mechanisms, etc? seems like modern Ferraris are more reliable until they aren't, then they cost $$,$$$ vs. $,$$$.
     
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  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Lagged behind in technology? Other European and American makes had fuel injection in the mid 50's. Ferrari? 1980. Other makes had independent suspension before World War 2. Ferrari? 1965. Ferrari was still using distributor points in 1980. By then in most circles they were museum artifacts. Lagging behind has been an historical norm for Ferrari. They have never been nor have they ever positioned themselves to be tech leaders. And thank God for that. They are too cheap and do not support it.

    Sticky interior parts?? What about the rest of the auto industry?


    Learning about the auto industry and its history should have been a prerequisite to writing this.
     
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  7. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I think there is a good argument to that through 328 etc Ferrari being more "traditional", it seems since then Ferrari has been more leading edge with performance technology. F1 systems, driver aides, power management, handling, etc.

    Looking back last 20 years at my cars every non-Ferrari has been without issue. Multiple Toyotas, Porsche, BMW, and even Fiat. :) What are the makes that have as many and as consistent problems with sticky parts last 25 years?
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Don't think I agree. There are some seriously fast cars out there who routinely beat Ferrari in several performance categories. There are a lot of reasons to have a Ferrari but one thing I will never claim is because it is the fastest best performing car out there. It is a high performance, high style luxury good.
    No different than the market niche they occupied in 1960.

    Ask the guys that fix them. I am told by them it crosses several makes.
     
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  9. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I agree.

    What this article gets across is sit in a 10-20 year old Ferrari and it is likely that it hasn't held together as well as a 328 which is much older. I will also take the cost of the 328 to maintain at 35 years old vs. that of anything made since then by Ferrari at 35 years old. We'll see.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The entire 308/328 series had that reputation. It was not really held by the cars that preceded it or followed it.
     
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  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Read post 10. You are selecting one model from the entire history of the make.
     
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  12. Steelton Keith

    Steelton Keith F1 Veteran
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    I read this with interest as I am a long time owner of an 87 GTS, with nearly 70,000 miles on the clock, and my wife has had an 08 430 for 6 or so years. I have had very little go wrong with either car. I have a great mechanic, all I do is the detailing. My 328 is solid as a rock, and (forgive me) just beautiful. You know, it's a really tiny car, and a heavy fender bender could be fatal, but it is a thrill looking at and driving this car. Outside of regular maintenance, which I religiously pay attention to, I have not had any issue of any kind with the car. I replaced the radio with a high end unit but never listen to it. My wife and I have 5 decades of education between us and still can't figure out the radio in the 430, and I've never had the nav screen on. The sticky buttons had to get fixed and why the factory hadn't had that sorted out is a mystery. I think the 430 (silverstone/crema spyder) is also a beautiful ride and it sounds terrific. I did change out the crummy exhaust tips, put capristo brackets, etc., on it but for reliability -never a problem in I think about 17,000 miles. The 430 is comfortable, the 328 not so much. My experience is, both cars were well bought and vetted (critical) and well taken car of by previous owners. I really take care of mine. Do that, and your experience is likely to be as satisfying as mine has been. And I'm not kissing anyone's ass here, thanks to F-Chat that I joined to learn about Ferrari and where I found the 328 from a totally stand up member from Boise Idaho. Keith
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    While I like the 430 and think it is a good car it has only 17000 miles and by the standards of the auto industry today that is nothing. We are at a point most cars can go 200,000 miles with little else but ordinary routine maintenance. I have sold cars with 150,000 miles on everything but tires, oil, oil filters and air filters.
     
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  14. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    Respectfully disagree, Rob. At least to an extent.

    All cars/Ferraris have their issues, an expensive ones at that, and older cars aren’t imune to them. Not everything is cheaper just because you need a wrench instead of a computer.

    Modern Ferraris are much cheaper to service, at least in an official dealer. It’s not hard to pay 1.000 to 1.500 USD for oil and filters, the bulk of the price being the oil itself, as V8 Ferraris take on much more oil than an ordinary daily driver.

    One example of labor and evolution:

    Changing the battery, according to my experience: on a Mondial, you have to all but disassemble the front right wheel well. Taje the wheel out, use tools to disassemble panels, stupid access with which you struggle all the way unless you have hands the size of a 5 year old. It really made me angry how incredibly stupid the whole process was.

    On my 458? Open a trap door in the passenger’s footrest, and voilà. 5 minutes, literally.

    Furthermore: no more mandatory engine out major servicing, no more rubber belts, etc.

    Plus: 60.000 for instance in a 308 is a lot. The same on a California or FF, you’ve just finished breaking them in.

    There are two main theories: either old cars will be cheaper and easier to maintain because there’s little complexity and no need for computers, or older cars will become increasingly expensive to maintain as time goes by, because master mechanics are dying and their trade is a lost art, everything is technological now and unless you are a DIY person, finding someone to degree an F355 cambelt correctly will become next to impossible.

    I don’t have the answer and I guess we must revisit this great thread started by Jack 10 or 20 years from now. There are three main variables here, in my very humble opinion:

    - Vintage cars fans vs modern car fans
    - DIY owners vs people like me, who don’t know how to service their own car and wouldn’t want to anyway, who like to know how things work but lack the time or interest, just want spend their time enjoying the car and leave its care to specialists (mechanics, detailers, etc).
    - People who take care of their Ferraris on a budget, and people who again just want to enjoy them and are happy to pay up to experts for the car’s TLC.

    Depending on how one positions oneself in these three categories, will determine which car will be easier and cheaper to maintain, once we pretty much seem to agree that in terms of comfort and versatility, no older Ferrari comes close to modern ones.

    Kindest regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  15. rob lay

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    You haven't had a 5-digit bill on your 458 yet? You will. There are many common failures among the F1 era cars and it just isn't the F1 that are easy 5-digits and they can start with a 2 or 3 too. When you have one of those let me know what your opinion is. Those without problems, how often are you driving your car? I have noticed that too with modern Ferraris, although they are more comfortable and drivable, they are getting driven less than Ferraris of years past.

    What can cost 5-digits on a Mondial or 328? Engine or trans rebuild? That's a very uncommon event.
     
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  16. energy88

    energy88 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aside from all the gingerbread and annoyances, I believe the deciding metric is the answer to this question back in the day: "Has the car ever left you stranded anywhere?"
     
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  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    That is a very important consideration. My garage cannot hold a car that I have no confidence will get me anywhere I want to go.
     
  18. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    This is a great thread involving very knowledgeable people! And it will never be resolved, because there will never be a big enough documented and audited sample size of, say, 328s vs 430s. Any individual owner's car could be an outlier. But the comments of someone like Rifledriver who has no skin in the game and has seen many of these cars, seem to me to carry extra weight.

    I have no idea as to the answer, and am biased as I own a 430 and other Fcars but not a 328. The 430 has been super reliable for 5 years but has few miles.

    As a journalist I thought the original article was fun, but not really serious, as a blanket statement like

    But in reviewing the used Ferrari market, older models like 328s appear to be in much better condition than more modern models like the F430.

    Cannot be taken to be authoritative (what's the source/justification/evidence/facts/why these models). German cars "appear" to be better made than Korean ones, but that's not borne out by warranty claims evidence for example.

    Looking forward to reading more.
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Pepople who have not had a modern Ferrari for a lot of miles fall into that trap constantly. The early cars had higher routine maintenance costs and everyone experienced that from day one. The modern cars have much lower routine costs but are grossly overloaded with poorly supported tech and when it breaks it will be quite costly. People complain about timing belts. There have been an uncomfortable number of cam drive failures in the newer V8s, not always with a lot of miles and the cost can be the same as a quite nice used car. There is a reason the extended warranties are a real popular item. We could have provided you with one back in 1988 but who needed it? I don't know how many times I have heard here someone would not have the car without the warranty and I agree with that whole heartedly. I told someone just the other day it was a choice not to work on the newer generation of Ferrari because I just don't like them. It is beyond my ability to explain to owners why they are building them the way they are and I have no desire to work on a product I don't believe in.

    I had a couple who were clients. He was a pretty well positioned guy at Apple and had a bunch of cars. He and the wife were both car people and both were friends. She came by in the brand new 458 to have me fix something minor before he found out it was broken. She took me to lunch and I drove. 1st time in a 458. After hotrodding around a bit she asked what I thought. I knew them well enough I could be brutally honest. I told her it was a brilliant performing car and fun to drive. Take out the Ferrari emblems and I would have no idea what it was. Zero character and no familial connection to any prior Ferrari. She told me they both agreed and it was soon to be gone.
     
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  20. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    The only Ferrari that has left me stranded, of the six I have owned, 10 or so friends classics I have driven, and 25+ highly coddled nearly new press cars I have reviewed over the last 20 years, was a 2016 Cali T HS.
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I am not a huge fan of the model but in its defense that can happen, even to a Toyota.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #22 Rifledriver, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    I guess to sum it up for the modern cars for me. The company has fully embraced that which traditionally they have done the least well. Chasing the latest and greatest tech and gadgetry. They have done so at the expense of their core/traditional strengths. They were a sports car company. True it was a luxury good (exclusive/expensive), high style sports car company, but drivers cars were at the root of it. To me it is no longer that at all.
     
  23. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #23 AlfistaPortoghese, Apr 8, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    Again, I feel it’s a very personal issue. In the end, it tells more about us than the car itself.

    I’ve just read Brian’s post, whose knowledge and experience are second to none and that I respect profoundly, but I offer the contrary position in the way of food for thought only, because as I said, it varies greatly from person to person:

    Driving the Mondial 3.2 Cabriolet:

    Lots of character. A car from Enzo Ferrari’s time. Simple to service. However... Steering wheel is huge, seems like a submarine hatch to turn, everything but sporty. Heavy, unresponsive. The car is hot, engine bay heat penetrates the cabin and the AC only exists in theory. Brakes are a joke. Engine noise is nice, but perfectly ordinary. Performance is sluggish at best. No torque, no power in mid range. Driving position is a complete joke, pedals are to your right, the clutch rests were the brakes should be on a normal car. Gearbox lever is long, like a broom and terribly, hopelessly imprecise. You have to wrestle with it to get into gear. Cowl shake everywhere, everytime. Body roll in every turn you take when traveling in excess of 60kph. Fuel gage once you reach the halfway mark is useless. Seats don’t hold you into place above 50kph or hug you in any way.

    As much precision, fun, feedback and sportiveness as a moving truck.

    Driving the 458:

    Yes, replying to Rob, I’ve already had a 5 digit bill to pay. Life is short and it’s better to leave that kind of money at an official Ferrari dealer than the hospital. Life is short. I self insure, so no matter how long and big the bill may be, that won’t stop me enjoying the car to the fullest.

    AC works flawlessly. Car feels like a go kart. Taking corners is like being on a train on rails. Cornering at 300kph feels like a 50kph turn on a daily driver in terms of precision, feedback and roll, which is zero. Whenever I take my foot off the gas, it backfires and makes me grin everytime. Carbon fiber racing seats make you feel a Formula One racing driver. I want to drive slow, it helps me go slow: soft suspension, exhaust valves closed, JBL premium sound system on. I want to track it, traction control off, valves open, suspension firms up and it helps me to make the most of it, knowing it won’t turn on me anymore than my mother would. Carbon fiber brakes stop me in a way that I feel that if I wasn’t strapped in, I’d fly off my seat through the windscreen. Every control is within easy reach. Gearbox seems to read my mind and is as fast as a heartbeat.

    It feels not like a supercar, but a hypercar. As much fun as a man can get with his clothes on.

    I started off my Ferrari experience with a Mondial. First time I drove a modern car, I sold it and never looked back. I like old cars, but can’t live with them because I don’t have fun with them. Again, it’s telling more about me than the car, but it’s just my personal opinion and experience.

    Old cars may have more “character” (?), charm, nostalgia, etc. They may also be more durable, as it was the core of Jack’s excellent article. But you have to adapt to them, whereas a modern car adapts to YOU. That’s a huge difference in practice, difficult to put into words. So what if they end up lasting less (whatever that means) or make me pay a big bill once in a while? I have fun, I have memories, I get thrills. That’s hard to quantify and far outweighs everything else. I guess who disagrees with me, feels the same about old cars the way I feel about modern ones, so I completely get it, just don’t agree or feel the same.

    However, I’d like to clarify one thing: By modern cars and fun, for me the buck stops with hybrids and SUVs.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  24. bernieb

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    This is a great thread. I've enjoyed sufficient good fortune to have a 3.4 litre 308,a 90 tr, and a gated 01 360 in my toy shop. What would I get rid of if I had to downsize? It would be the 360...and for me it would be a very quick and easy decision. I only drive it when I'm feeling lazy or want to feel pampered anyway but it is a good fun car. The other two you'd have to pry the keys from my cold dead hands with a tire iron. And that's because they're old like me and they remind me of times that will never come back. Having said that I don't think Ferrari ever gave a **** about either build quality or their customers. If they did they would have at least fixed the sticky switch issue. When I stomp on the gas the last thing on my tiny mind is build quality, past or present.
     
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    And everything you say about the Mondial was said about it by nearly everyone when it was built. It was never held up as one of their finer cars.
     

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