Old vs New Ferrari Build Quality | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Old vs New Ferrari Build Quality

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Booker, Apr 8, 2020.

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  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    #51 Rifledriver, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
    Those resources I speak of are world wide. Some are in North America and some are not. I have never been asked for a passport prior to getting a repair done so I have to assume they don't care where I am from. As far as outright buying spare parts many I buy come to me from Italy or the UK. I am not aware of any priority for me to get them from there as I would have in South America. Fed Ex serves both last I checked.


    If you are going to make an authoritative statement, it would be better if you were an authority. I am not the only one of those here but you seem to be the only one who is telling me what is within my professional ability.
     
  2. Ridgeback

    Ridgeback Rookie

    Nov 19, 2012
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    Richard
    Unlike the experts here, I've only ever owned two Ferraris. One was a 72 365GTC/4, and one was a 72 Dino. I know - I'm old...

    I'm therefore rather surprised to see no mention of the Colombo engined V12s in this entire thread? While the GTC/4 had many silly issues, mainly based on the design (remove the intake trumpets to remove the air filter housings - just to change the filter!) it was basically bulletproof mechanically. Same with my Dino. I also got to drive friends' cars, and eventually ended up (leave now if you wish to avoid the blasphemy) buying.....a Maserati Indy 4.9.

    Now THAT is a car I would accurately describe as bulletproof.....as was its successor, the Ghibli.

    Rob, thanks for a great thread. I'll get me coat....;-)
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I don't think you are at odds with any of the opinions expressed as far as the quality of major componentry is concerned. Referring to the original piece here is important though. Neither one represented cutting edge technology. Both were built at a time when their competitors were using fuel injection and unit body construction. Something Ferrari didn't have until 1980 for F.I. and 1989 for unit body. In fairness the Dino had a bad reputation for electrical issues and it was deserved.
     
  4. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    if we want to widen this conversation to include cars from other makes, that is also an interesting comparison.

    my father and i own a lot of cars, and each one has been through at least some renovation and extended maintenance, so we have had the opportunity to see them unbuttoned with their guts on display. we always remark to one another about the differences in engineering and build quality between the british cars, the german cars, the italian cars etc. you can line up cars from similar eras and different countries, and you can tell who had a decent economy, who had good management, who had decent labor laws etc etc.

    quick example: look at a jaguar e-type series 1, mercedes sl pagoda, and a late 60's porsche 911.
    disregarding whatever you think about the shape, the performance, or the company.... just look at simple things like door or trunk hinges, convertible top mechanisms, suspension, engine design and layout, panel gaps, wiring harness, window gasket fit etc etc.

    the mercedes is completely over engineered. everything was thought out, and designed not to just function, but to continue to function until the end of time.
    the porsche is functional, but shortcuts are evident, compromises were taken, and there is a general lower standard evident in all aspects.
    the jag looks like a bunch of guys in a shed built it in a rush with rudimentary tools so that they could get home before dark (lucas joke).

    i have not taken apart or had extensive experience with a pre fiat ferrari (although i very much want to), but i can imagine that the build quality was probably slightly better than the jag, but still way behind the mercedes.

    but there can be a certain charm in that too.
     
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  5. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Aug 7, 2012
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    Hyundai, for one. Some of my 2008 interior parts look almost like a burn victim.
     
  6. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Mar 1, 2002
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    Itamar Ben-Gvir
    Perhaps some Daewoo owners (not me) can make you feel somewhat better :D. Misery enjoys company. I guess Daewoo ownership can top some of the 348 stories.

    *( CV has provided me with too much time on my hands ). I am board. Board.
     
  7. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Rob, also need to consider the repairs as a percentage of the purchase price, in period. If it's a $400,000 car, chock full of expensive tech, then you can expect it to have bills to match.

    And that's not just cars.

    We had presses that cost north of $1,000,000. the annual maintenance could run $40-50K. We also had presses that cost $90,000, they generally needed little or no special maintenance, the press operator could generally handle it. Same applies here.

    So, sure a new ferrari might have a $xx,xxx repair bill in it's life time, but it still only represents 10% of the car's purchase price. The same on a 308 would be what, $7K? Hell, that's a belt service and an oil change, right?

    D
     
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  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    a Cali new $235k and $35k trans bill. a Cali now $85k and a $35k trans bill. 328 will be worth more than a Cali soon and will be 20-30% of the cost to maintain. I also wonder what the Cali will look like inside at 35 years old. Much less an electronics comparison at 35 years old.
     
  9. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Jul 1, 2013
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    I can personally attest to what Nuno stated in terms of my own experience. I happen to live 5 minutes away from Palo Alto Speedometer.

    People often laugh that such a shop exists, akin to Spatula city, alas, I meander.

    I brought my analog components, and they fixed it overnight; my digital clock, however, was turned away. I explored three other digital clock repair shops; all said they were not amendable to fix it.

    So I just bought a used one.

    Yes, a sample size of 1, but my personal experience.
    I read no definitive proclamation above. Nuno even opened his post with "question" and prefaced his assertion with "think" not "is."

    Brian, while many here, including I, often appreciate your advice and input, I also cringe and ponder wonder why you always seem to also itch for a fight?

    I get if the target of your scorn is a troll or engages in egregiously foolhardy statements (see @noone1), but I often see good faith posts the target of your flame.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    With the maintenance programs and warranties now not as big a factor as it once was. As Rob points out it becomes a big factor in the used market though. Just like airplanes and boats. High operational costs suppress market values.
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I only respond in kind. Don't want a fight, don't start one.
     
  12. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Add some weight to that hair-trigger friend.
    :)
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Friend to me is a very important term. I am not one of yours.
     
  14. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    There you go, ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Who has a hair trigger?
     
  16. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    #66 paulchua, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
    Nuno, you know I have to chime in here.

    ;)

    Next to a 458, the Mondial is a truck. I agree 100%
    ***
    That said, I was surprised at your dislike for the transmission! My benchmarks are the S2000 and NSX I've had, which some consider having the best manual transmissions of all time. I will always take the gated shifter!

    In the 't', the cabin ac blows ice cold, at times too cold! For sound, Tubi sets that right. The steering and wheel is a powered assistant version of the 348. What many aficionados consider one of the best steerings feel Ferrari of all time. Brakes are also superb and I never had issues even on track.

    I like the seating position and pedal placement; it's perfect for heal-toe. Agreed the fuel gauge is useless (I use my tripometer as my proxy and cowl shake is inescapable for an 80's era drop top)

    Nuno, I know you mean no disrespect, and perhaps some of the things you mentioned were indicative of your particular example.

    Always a pleasure Nuno.
     
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  17. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Friend, I was yet another in a long line providing feedback on your posting style. As with others, you've left my advice instead of taking it. That's your prerogative.
     
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  18. papou

    papou Formula 3
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    Nuno yours are one of the posts I always look forward to reading it would be a shame to not have your opinion on any subject,
    We all know Brian’s ways, So time to put your big boy pants and hang with us.
    Daniel.
     
  19. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2014
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    Darius
    This fascinating and engrossing thread has the making of one of those Fchat conversations that could be turned into a reference book. It would be a shame if eloquent and articulate mods like Paul and Nuno end up in a diverting tangle with Brian. I picture Brian with a stogie in the corner of his mouth, posting while fixing a camshaft with his eyebrows. Seriously a public forum is much stronger with people who have deep experience of getting their hands dirty. I'd always listen to a surgeon on a forum about invasive medical procedures. However brusque.

    Back on topic, from my scientifically insignificant sample size of my owned cars, just to join in the game:

    F512M: 1995: exterior build quality seems great. Interior simple but solid. Dreadful interior though in terms of class - how can this be related to a 275? The car has been totally reliable for 5.5 years, with the exception of a sensor. Heavy like a truck at low speeds, but get it singing at high revs and whipping around corners and it's breathtaking in a way neither a Speciale nor a Pista can match. Also a remarkably good cruiser.

    550: 1997: bloody expensive car to own and maintain. Fuel senders disintegrating, lots of other stuff, depressing. Perceived quality was good. A bit boring but elegant.

    575 gated FHP 2004: like a much better version of the 550. Really flies. No complaints about cost, nothing has gone wrong though soon to be hit by the cam belt bill. Super comfortable. Stickies, replaced, sticky again. Love the gearchange.

    F430 Spider gated 2005: Fun, edgy, special feeling (in the sense it would not be a great DD but a brilliant weekend car). Very nice interior. Still feels analogue, though manettino and e diff suggest it's not. Still not as special on the edge as the F512M. Super reliable and the only cost is petrol and tyres and oil changes.

    none of these cars have the special feeling in terms of build of friends cars I have driven like 275 GTB4, 250 Cali. But maybe that's an illusion.

    Such an interesting thread, so many very knowledgeable people on here. Look forward to reading more.
     
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  20. Griffon83

    Griffon83 Formula Junior

    Dec 5, 2016
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    I am not a Ferrari owner, but honestly I would hesitate to own a Testarossa or a 456 (manual). Why? As James May once said after driving the Countach "you never, ever, meet your childhood heroes. Stick with the memory". Imagine having the car of your childhood dreams and end up paying an never-ending amount of money for service and maintenance.

    Plastic parts that cannot be found -only if Ferrari decides to invest in 3D printing genuine parts-, electric circuits that need to be replaced -Harry Metcalfe had to buy a new fuse board from USA for his Testarossa, cost him 2000 GBP!-, PITA for real.

    Same will apply with modern, post 2010 Ferraris. It's good that Ferrari offers a 7-year warranty policy that can go even further (15 years!), but beyond that, good luck.
     
  21. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    Nassos, many of us who are Ferrari owners are living our dreams. There is no substitute for doing so, if you can, you must.
     
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  22. wmuno

    wmuno Formula Junior
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    As the owner of a very old Ferrari (1967 330 GTC), there are 2 things I see as an advantage: you don't need a laptop to service it; and most of the components, including electrical items, can be disassembled to clean, service, or repair them. The disadvantage is that parts are hard to find, but to my surprise for the right price I have always been able to locate any part I needed. Enzo must want to keep his cars running!
     
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  23. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
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    i think you might be taking away the wrong message out of this thread.
    ferraris have issues, but as brian said, everything but a toyota does.
    and wouldnt you rather spend some of your time on this earth in a ferrari instead of a toyota?
     
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  24. DeDion

    DeDion Rookie

    Aug 1, 2007
    5
    Well, OK. History:
    There were few makes that had "fuel injection" in the mid 50s. There were some GM, Chrysler and AMC cars that had Bendix electronic fuel injection. Most of those were converted back to carburetors because, well, the wax encapsulated capacitors were VERY unreliable (especially mounted over the hot radiator), and, there were very few built. We are talking low two digit numbers for the makes that attempted to use the new technology, making these (existing versions) very rare cars. Later Corvettes had Rochester fuel injection, a mechanical CIS design, as well as some other Chevy models. Those were more reliable, and are still prized today.
    Mercedes was around with their Bosch injected cars, which were the only ones produced in numbers early on. Lucas had a system as well, mainly seen on Maserati 3500s, and racing Jaguars.
    In racing, there were plenty of fuel injected cars that carbureted Ferraris beat on a regular basis. And when Ferrari adopted fuel injection, well, they got beat by a dumb Holley 4 bbl. The more things change...
    Ferrari, and EVERYONE ELSE adopted fuel injection to comply with ever tightening emissions requirements, adopted initially in the US, but were later required throughout Europe. Most of the European types were variations of the Bosch Jetronic, and then Motronic. For the US makes, there were systems from Ford, GM and Chrysler. Alfa used their own diesel derived system from SPICA. I had a couple of those, as well as early Bosch Motronic and Jetronic (Mercedes, SAAB, Volvo and Renault R5Turbo).
    Prior to '80, there were still a lot of carburetors on US built cars (the electronic types that were not reliable and difficult to tune or repair). My '76 350 V8 4 speed Nova had a carb on it and produced something like 160 HP... Now, there are California EO approved, aftermarket, self tuning throttle body injection units for some of those cars, should you want to spend $3500 to convert one. Yippeee...
    Independent suspension was around for a long time on some production cars, but mostly as swing axles, which had lots of problems when compared to a properly controlled solid axle. Cars that were successful on swing axles usually were successful in spite of their rear suspension, having a combination of light weight and sufficient power to make for a competitive package. There were quite a few DeDion tube setups being used by Lancia, Maserati, Aston Martin, Jaguar, but those are not "independent". Lotus was using their Chapman strut suspension on the production cars, as well as DeDion (mid 50s Lotus 11) to their advantage as well. Jaguar had their E Type production car, and the Lightweight, but they were still chasing GTOs and TRs with solid axles. The Cobra had equal length suspension arms, which causes all sorts of handling problems, but with a lot of power, light weight some smart engineering, were competitive despite the deficient suspension design. Of course, we can't forget the C2 Corvette, but with the exception of maybe the Grand Sport, not competitive in international racing. 'Fact is, during this time, the Ferraris with their solid axles were better road cars to drive, if you were looking for a big, powerful sports or GT car. Ferrari knew that a Pioneer was just a dirt farmer with an arrow in his butt.Thet built what they knew, and, if you drive a solid axle Ferrari sports car today, compared to its contemporaries, they knew a lot about solid axle sports cars.
    That Ferrari was winning races with solid axles proves their design, and other really fine handling cars (Alfas, for instance) had solid axles as well. Why mess with success? I even had a Fox Mustang with my own design rear suspension setup using the standard solid axle that out handled the IRS Mustangs.
    Then... In sports racing cars, Lotus came up with the Lotus 23, and that changed everything. It was the first modern race car, and is still an amazing thing to drive today.
    Ferrari built the 156, and that technology filtered through the rest of Ferrari's sports racers, which (after being blown away by a 1.6 liter Lotus 23) became mid engine cars. Eventually there was the front engine 275 GTB and the following models fitted with IRS. The 275 was probably too late for a racer, but it was the basis for a whole bunch of wonderful front engine Ferraris that followed.
    Today's Ferraris are complex, but have evolved. No longer do we have the F1 style single dry clutches or cam belts that require engine out replacements at intervals that seem so short, even if you don't drive the car.
    I look at and drive the later cars, and think about owning one, but then I am from a different time, and would love nothing better in my garage than a 275 GTB4, or 275 GTB6C (easier valve adjustments). Not a lot of electronics. 'Don't even need an old Blau in the dash.
    But, being older, and having a young wife, and a 5 year old daughter, I went another way, and acquired a lovely, narrow body Morgan +8 to sit next to my Lotus 11 copy. Simplicity. Light weight, A V8. Solid axles. All is right in my automotive world.
     
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  25. Griffon83

    Griffon83 Formula Junior

    Dec 5, 2016
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    When the time comes, will definitely do, assuming the world post COVID-19 will change for the better.

    Never expected a Ferrari, let alone any Italian car, to be more reliable than a Toyota. We owned 3 Fiats and 2 Subarus over the years, the Subarus kept beating the other cars in terms of reliability. I now have a Mitsubishi. Tough times, tight budgets.

    If I ever get the chance to have some millions in the bank, of course I'll buy a Ferrari, not an old one though, GTC4Lusso or 812GTS. Need the money to buy, insure, service, and maintain roadworthy such an expensive car. And most definitely it's not going to be a garage queen. It also won't be a daily drive. It will my special car for various trips around Greece and Europe, standalone or with the Ferrari Club of Greece.

    For a daily drive, you need a humble and reliable car. Toyota/Lexus/Honda is a no-brainer.

    My dream garage are 3 cars: An Alpina touring, one Ferrari GT, and one Japanese city car.

    As for older Ferraris, I'll stick to my Bburago Dark Blue/Creme 456 my parents got me as a gift back in the '90s, alongside the red Porsche 911 (993) and the black Dodge Viper .
     
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