LaFerrari replacement: v12, no hybrid, less power than SF90stradale? | Page 6 | FerrariChat

LaFerrari replacement: v12, no hybrid, less power than SF90stradale?

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by Ale55andr0, Dec 24, 2019.

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  1. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 1, 2010
    7,779
    around Modena, Italy
    Full Name:
    Alberto Mantovani
    a V12 with an electric turbo system could be a good choice: no lag, tons of power, low weight and they already have a patent for the best sound with such a solution.

    I don't know if they are developing a brand new V12, but that would look very strange to my eyes: they are already developing a brand new V6 with 700 hp, the V8 is not old and it can afford furthers power increasing, so why spending money into a new V12, in a period where they are spendind a lot of money in the elctrification?

    let's see

    ciao
     
    Ale55andr0, 9nb and werewolf like this.
  2. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,281
    Le caylar (France)
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    mathieu Jeantet
    Because if they don't do this , they will slowly lose their soul and disappear in a few decades.
    They can't afford to be a generic automotive company
     
    red passion likes this.
  3. werewolf

    werewolf F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 29, 2007
    11,022
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    goodbye
    I would not be at all surprised to see innovative execution along these lines:

    - Energy scavenging: recovering/converting heat from braking, suspension travel, ICE exhaust, etc
    - Energy storage: batteries, supercapacitors
    - Recovered energy deployment: electric motors in drivetrain, electric compressor on ICE intake, etc

    When viewed in this light, classic turbocharging is just another energy scavenging technique that's "crude" by modern standards. Instead, why not convert exhaust heat to electricity (via turbine), store that energy in batteries (or capacitors), and deploy that energy some time later ... either in electric drivetrain motors, electric compressors on the ICE intake, or both?

    There's no doubt in my mind that Ferrari is thinking along these very lines :) and there's no doubt that we'll see a new, more "comprehensive" level of electric storage and deployment in the new Ferrari hypercar.
     
    G. Pepper likes this.
  4. Albert-LP

    Albert-LP F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 1, 2010
    7,779
    around Modena, Italy
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    There are some rumors of a system like that. Maybe we will see it an a V12 already this year...

    Ciao
     
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  5. Mohamed Almarzooqi

    Sep 1, 2019
    34
    Ferrari still sticking with 3 Super lineup plan of V12/Hybrid (LaFerrari replacement) V8/Hybrid (SF90) V6/Hybrid (F8 replacement) for 2022 (which is now 2023), LaFerrari replacement will be very lightweight compared to SF90 with carbon tub and new Battery technology (I doubt solid state as less likely it will be ready before 2025), it will use the updated V12 engine we have seen Ferrari talked about once (we might see this engine in 812VS but dont take my word on this yet), it will be around 1100-1200hp (on par with Valkyrie and AMG One), but one area we will see massive improvements is Aerodynamics (expect first seen systems in road car)...... this is just from info i gathered and my opinion on LaFerrari replacement and why we could see a delay until 2023 than 2022 (battery technology delay)
     
  6. 9nb

    9nb Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2012
    622
    Wasn’t it previously suggested that the LaFerrari replacement will focus on weight rather than high HP? I’d love it if Ferrari made something that has ‘moderate’ hp like 600-700hp and super low weight, as close as possible to 1000kg, and be more of a competitor for the Murray T50.
     
    grab it likes this.
  7. Mohamed Almarzooqi

    Sep 1, 2019
    34
    Let me ask you this, does focus on weight mean sacrifice power or remove batteries? Just like Aventador focused on Handling doesnt mean its acceleration or top speed became less and ended up destroying its predecessor.... So look at Valkyrie specs you will understand what Ferrari lacks and why they said focus on weight and aerodynamics! It just mean biggest change are (weight and aerodynamics) cause LaFerrari far behind in those but we will still see power upgrade as well, afterall around 1000 to 1100 or 1200hp is not that big nowadays but weight reduction from 1585kg to 1200-1100kg is a big difference!
     
  8. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    No chance whatsoever.
     
  9. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,281
    Le caylar (France)
    Full Name:
    mathieu Jeantet
    A brand New V12 is in the pipeline not an updated one it seems.
    Really doubt the laferrari replacement will be a hybrid car ( leiters words)
     
  10. Mohamed Almarzooqi

    Sep 1, 2019
    34
    It was already leaked featuring different ignition system and modes, also i know that leiters said we only will make a hybrid with downsized engine but he wasnt talking about LaFerrari replacement, cause he also said we reached nearly to the limit of an NA engine power so we need to use technology to push further and find more power, he also said that LaFerrari replacement will come when new technology becomes ready, and this what i mean by new electric technology and will be different and much lighter (still I doubt its solid state), if they can do over 1000hp V12 only then makes sense otherwise i dont see this car having less power than SF90, the highest the V12 reached is in its racing state at around 850hp at 9250rpm so going at least 150hp more needs some sort of magic or all new engine technology (not to mention more strict regulations now compared to before)
     
  11. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Wrong on so many fronts. The current V12 is maxxeed out. The F150 engine was conceived back in 2003 and it's highest road going evolution was installed in the LaFerrari. A newer V12 will be so much better.
     
  12. Mohamed Almarzooqi

    Sep 1, 2019
    34
    Not really, first of all its F140 engine not F150, 2nd the new engine still based on F140 engine which sits at 65 degrees but will have new injection technology and other updates to it (so its evolution of F140 rather than an all new engine like Cosworth V12), 3rd F140 started around 660hp max in Enzo and years later reached nearly 200hp more through updating and perfecting it, theres always room for improvements, but if the over 1000hp target is correct i cant see this engine producing this much power without batteries support (remember new changes aimed at effeciency mostly to pass new regulations).....

    Anyway lets wait and see i guess, i just shared what i know and heard

    Also remember highest output in FXXK was in 6.3L displacement not in Monza or 812's 6.5L displacement, so I still see Ferrari able to break 900hp with this engine, but 1000hp I doubt (in my opinion)
     
  13. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
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    Barry K
    Wrong. Monza SP @ 810CV = 799HP.

    And it's F140 not F150.
     
  14. Johnny_Bravo

    Johnny_Bravo Formula Junior

    Dec 7, 2012
    420
    #139 Johnny_Bravo, Apr 21, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
    150 HP is not that big of a deal. In fact, it's easy as pie.

    2004 F1 car had a 3 litre NA V10 with an output of +900 HP

    This is 2020. Are u people gonna tell me that Ferrari engineers are that stupid that they can't extract a measly 150 HP from an engine that has 2 extra cylinders and more than double the displacement ?!
    If that is the case, then they should all go home or find something else for a living cause they are the most incompetent people on Earth. o_O

    If fact, if we take into account the ratios I said:
    3 litre ..........NA V10........900+HP ====> 6.5 litre.......NA V12.........3000 HP

    That is what the output should be based on 2004 technology. With current technology advancements they could even extract 5000 HP from it.

    Anyway, all this electric stuff has to go the **** away, it's garbage and it disgusts me. :mad:
    It just add too much weight to the car.

    Ferrari need to build a hypercar that has the following specs:
    - weight ranging from 900 kg to 1 ton max
    - 5 litre NA V10 reving to 15-20 000 RPM with a 1100 HP + output
    - the best aero you can put on a car (since there are no restrictions whatsoever), thus achieving a higher downforce than any race car
    - no electronics at all, cause they add weight and true drivers don't need them. Those who are not man enough to drive without them should go buy a Prius
    - no ABS, ESP and all that other crap. Not even an airbag, that is also useless.
    - carbon wheels
    - and the icing on the cake: it must have a single central driving position, like a proper ultimate driver's car would.
    And one more thing: it will only be built in 100 units and all are red and their owners are not allowed to ever change that.

    Then send it to the Nurburgring and lap that in under 6 minutes
    This car will not be built for a profit, but to make a statement, pissing on all other car manufacturers and showing them who is the Godzilla of the car world. :cool:

    I know some of you might laugh and say my post is idiotic, but this is what my dream car would actually look like. :D
     
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  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Remember an F1 engine only needs to be reliable for a few hours... that makes a significant difference in design.

    Not to mention all the various emissions regulations, etc.

    Making a streetable engine with same level of horsepower/rpm range that is also good for thousands of miles, thousands of hours runtime, is a lot more difficult.
     
  16. iohead

    iohead Karting

    Feb 19, 2013
    142
    Well.

    In a road car, the engine and the transmission have to last practically "forever". There's warranties and such.

    In a Formula 1 car, the engine and the transmission have to only hold up for the race. No warranty.

    Some customers actually get a taste of what it's like run and maintain an F1 car in Ferrari's F1 Clienti Programme. The per mile cost is not for the faint of heart. "Complete Engine and Transmission Rebuild" as a line-item on the annual or semi-annual scheduled maintenance of a road car would just not work. Even if some customers are willing to accept the running costs, doing so for a road car would be so pointless that the money would be better spent on treatment for the mental well being of said customers.

    Mercedes has been struggling with the AMG Project One. They have consistently been the top team in Formula 1 for a while, and yet, translating all that experience and expertise to a pseudo-F1-for-the-road car has proven to be far more expensive and difficult than what they expected and envisioned.
     
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  17. jpalmito

    jpalmito F1 Veteran

    Jun 5, 2009
    7,281
    Le caylar (France)
    Full Name:
    mathieu Jeantet
    1200kgs with all the fluids.
    A brand new 950 hp V12 without batteries

    Real life realistics targets for the next halo
     
  18. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Larger iteration, but less highly strung, with a lower specific output. Also, lacks the trick variable length intake plenum and has hydraulic valve lifters.


    Totally unrealistic for a road car. Such engine speeds require pneumatic valves, which are a reliability and maintenance nightmare. Not to mention that it will be undrivable on the road.


    That would be illegal. Not to mention that even racing drivers like electronics and they make the cars objectively better and quicker!
     
  19. BarryK

    BarryK Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2016
    1,160
    Europe
    Full Name:
    Barry K
    Wrong again. The 812 engine uses the same hydraulic tappets as the LaFerrari (p/n 255431). It also has continuously variable intakes ( @ 7:17). It makes more power than in the LaFerrari and a higher specific output is not necessarily always better e.g torque curve
     
  20. Ale55andr0

    Ale55andr0 Karting

    May 23, 2019
    228
    #145 Ale55andr0, Apr 22, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
    to last 500km until blown and at 18/19.000 rpm...a big N/A 6+ liter V12 (500cc per cyl, even with a 5liters v10) can't have all that power per liter because it will have a much, much lower RPM and higher friction losses



    they're not stupid, but they don't even have harry potter's wand...

    do you have wishes of death? XD
    even a f1 driver without the downforce of a f1 would be barely able to drive a car like that
     
  21. Johnny_Bravo

    Johnny_Bravo Formula Junior

    Dec 7, 2012
    420
    It doesn't need to be reliable for thousands of hours. The people that buy these hypercars are filthy rich. If it breaks down, you can just replace it with a new engine, no big deal.
     
  22. maha

    maha F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2014
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    dinajpur, bangladesh
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    mahmud
  23. maha

    maha F1 Rookie

    Mar 17, 2014
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    mahmud
  24. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,342
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    George
    You obviously don’t know these people very well... Just check with any Ferrari dealer about the reactions of LaF owners upon discovering how much it costs to replace their batteries once they died by being left uncharged!


    Sent from my iPad using FerrariChat
     
    Jeronimo GTO and F142George like this.
  25. RedRacer

    RedRacer Formula Junior
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 20, 2006
    791
    USA
    Full Name:
    Redracer
    The battery replacement of the small battery for the LAF is under $15k. Not cheap by any standard. When the small battery dies you usually need a technician to come to deal with the car wheels and systems being locked up. It’s a total mess, especially if the car is sitting in a garage. Hopefully the new systems will be longer-lasting and easier to replace.
     

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