The ultimate F50 exhaust project | Page 2 | FerrariChat

The ultimate F50 exhaust project

Discussion in '288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LaFerrari' started by ScuderiaCarParts, May 7, 2020.

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  1. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,874
    Has anyone ever established what exhaust this F50 has? F50 around 0:55...



    CW
     
  2. ScuderiaCarParts

    BANNED

    Feb 8, 2013
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    Scuderia Car Parts
    What you've said about the manifolds is very interesting, we have just had these photos sent to us by Capristo of the Tubi

    As you can see here the welding isn't very good on the Tubi manifolds, the contact between the pipes is not perfect:
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    Secondly, you can can see here that the intake is poorly welded as well, causing turbulence in the exhaust flow
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    As for the Dyno run - this was done by a private owner of ours about 15 years ago so let me see if I can get the sheet from him!
     
  3. ScuderiaCarParts

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    I'm very familiar with Fuchs! Their build quality is superb,

    I'd love to know what you did for the manifolds/cats? Did you leave them as standard or did Fuchs manufacture a decat/sport cat solution for you?
     
  4. ScuderiaCarParts

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    There's no doubt in our mind that this car has no rear mufflers, and there's no way of achieving that level of volume with cats in place,

    If I were a betting man I would say that is a Tubi manifold/cat replacement/rear muffler replacement system, the reverberations off the buildings add quite a lot to the drama!
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    May 23, 2006
    57,288
    Southern California
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    Joe Sackey
    Beautiful F50 you have.

    You are the 5th or 6th person I'm aware of who had a sports exhaust affixed to their F50 who has returned to the standard exhaust.
     
    Rossocorsa1 likes this.
  6. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    Bravo. Good to hear.
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ
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    May 23, 2006
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    It begs the saying: "He liked it so much he got rid of it" ;)
     
  8. FCD

    FCD Karting

    Nov 27, 2011
    167
    Germany
    The task was to get a great sound without changing the manifolds and catalytic converters. In addition, all original attachment points should be used. Fuchs fulfilled everything!
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  9. 456mgt

    456mgt Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2002
    628
    Cambridge UK
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    Kevin
    For those of you espousing stock, I suggest you wait and see what we can come up with in this project. In my case, I'm absolutely not happy with stock, and neither am I with what's been available so far. Ergo this thread (though I'm not sure why Scuderia bother).

    Any product that emerges from the factory gates is the net result of a whole host of compromises, both internal and external.They're obviously not optimised. In fact you can see this from Ferrari themselves with their racing/hardcore derivatives of road cars, and the GT, FXX and FXXK programs. They always look, sound and handle better than the road versions so there's definitely room for improvement.
     
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  10. FCD

    FCD Karting

    Nov 27, 2011
    167
    Germany

    The problem is that we are all not getting younger! ‍♂️
     
    joe sackey likes this.
  11. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    Certainly, first and foremost, I believe anyone has the right to do as they wish with their own property. And, I appreciate what you're saying about relative improvements. Still, to me, Ferrari is beyond just an auto brand. I think the cars that surface from Maranello, shortcomings and all, should be preserved in their purist form, as intended by the factory, particularly the supercars. I also think, without question, that all pure Ferrari's, but especially the supercars, have distinctly more value when left in their original specification. My casual observations suggest that, ultimately, most, if not all the supercars will eventually return to their original specification once an intermediate phase of ownership passes. For example, who would put the wrong system on a 250 SWB or a 275 GTB? If one did, it would seriously be frowned upon and certainly wouldn't last long. I admit, I'm surprised that there are so many F50's that have been converted. I would have assumed very few, if any.
     
    joe sackey likes this.
  12. Karimsaid

    Karimsaid Formula Junior
    Regional Sponsor

    Oct 2, 2014
    406
    Hi Kevin. Happy to see that you are still enjoying her. I followed you when you said 'its biblical'. I agree that, however, the low revs are somehow tuneless. So let me know the result of your new project. I might follow you again...
     
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  13. 456mgt

    456mgt Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2002
    628
    Cambridge UK
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    Kevin
    Hey Karim! Glad you're still out there. Moved since the last time you were here, and BB swapped out for a Miura. Couple of other additions as well. If you're in the UK, look me up. You'd love the Kreisseg on the CGT. Just been out in it.
     
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  14. rossocorsa13

    rossocorsa13 F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2006
    2,557
    Nashville, Tennessee
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    M
    Kevin and Dylan -- thanks for sharing. The F50 never gets enough attention.

    A slightly selfish request -- one of the best things about 90s supercars was that they still retained that very mechanical induction / compression / explosion / expulsion sound. They still sounded like they were powered by engines, even when they were heavily muffled. I think the F50's stock sound, while underwhelming, is actually a great example of this. You can hear all of the engine's sounds, they're just buried under a thousand pillows.

    IMO, modern supercars have lost this. Most supercars today sound like they have speakers trying to reproduce only one or two sounds that an engine makes -- usually the sound of exhaust gases reverberating through metal pipes. That sound is usually louder than the engine's other sounds, like induction, or even other mechanical sounds. I'm thinking of the difference between an Enzo and a LaFerrari. A stock Enzo sounds stock, but is both gritty and sonorous. A stock LaF sounds less "stock" -- it sounds hi-pitched and very "F1" -- but that sound is always louder than the other sounds that the engine makes. It comes across as one-dimensional.

    Stock, I think Ferrari nailed this balance with the 355. That engine has an incredible range of notes but still retains a true bottom end made up of mechanical noises.

    So whatever you do, please use modern tech to pull out all of the sound. I'm excited to follow this project because I don't think I've heard an F50 that sounds like it really should.

    And if you can nail the sound of the F50 GT filmed from the cockpit of that 355 while still meeting noise and emission regulations, hats off to you. I've watched that video a hundred times. It is the best engine sound ever, especially when rolling back onto the throttle around 6K rpm.
     
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  15. ScuderiaCarParts

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    I think you would be quote surprised at the number of cars that have been modified - when I worked at Joe Macari we had something like 15 F50's on site at one point, not a single original exhaust to be seen on any of them!
     
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  16. ScuderiaCarParts

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    A great point well made, Kevin! We'll have the F50 GT running with it's tail between it's legs ;)
     
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  17. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    That's a shame, though I'm not doubting you. I don't get it - the F50 stock is an amazing sounding car as is. I certainly hope the owners are keeping the original systems. There will come a day when these mods are stripped off and the cars and they are returned to their original specifications. The most descerning will demand it.
     
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  18. ScuderiaCarParts

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    So we've now established that even Ferrari themselves acknowledge that the F50 OEM exhaust was designed with their hands tied, if it were exactly what they wanted the F50 GT would have sounded the same as the standard F50!

    Most owners of the F50 install aftermarket solutions in order to rid themselves of the demonstrably underwhelming original exhaust note. I've seen this not only in my experience as a Service Advisor at a Main Dealer Ferrari servicing centre, but Scuderia Car Parts have also got the sales data to back up that they have modified at least 22 separate F50s since 2002

    We know that up until now the products available don't unleash the latent potential that the engine is capable of, both from a sound and power generation point of view - and we freely admit that the current offerings have their shortcomings, which is why a number of owners have reverted back to the original exhaust

    This is where we have stepped in to collaborate with Capristo...

    Capristo – The brief



    So, we approached Capristo. Scuderia and Capristo have a very close corporate relationship and indeed, our management have a close personal relationship too. At Scuderia we’ve been their distributors for over 10 years and we knew that Capristo’s team is second to none and Antonio is absolute perfectionist.
    There was only one place we could get this project done properly…. So the car was picked up and away it went:


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    The brief we gave them was very simple – make the car sound as close to the F50 GT as possible. And make it switchable so it’s not disgustingly loud at low rpm unless we want it to be! This solution also solves the extant issue of torque by giving us some variable backpressure functionality too to bump low rpm torque – so you can now have both at the press of a button!


    For those wondering here’s your F50 GT:


    That’s about it. We didn’t elaborate the brief a great deal more beyond that.


    They have the knowledge, they have the car, they know what we want – we and the owners can leave it to them.



    So, in this huge post, we’ve summarised how the OEM system really sounds like nothing and is badly restrictive and flawed.

    We’ve shown how the current systems available for the F50 produce a decent exhaust note, but not quite the Formula 1 sound we know can be achieved from this engine.

    We know that the options are either heavily baffled rear silencers or a straight through section, which as we have discussed offer benefits and drawbacks, but are both fundamentally compromised.

    And we know that the best selling Tubi header can be improved and that header changes on the V12 can yield dramatic differences in sound.


    We also know that there are some wild Japanese F50’s with different combinations of header and muffler, and finally we know that blending exhaust gasses in an X, in both V10 and V12 layouts has had the effect of producing a series of sympathetic harmonic frequencies that lift the pitch of the exhaust note up.


    Now it’s over to Capristo……


    Current progress



    The car was delivered to Capristo last week

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    [​IMG]
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    They then carried out a full laser scan of the engine bay and exhaust which will allow them to create a 3D model that they can use as a basis on which to create the new exhaust.

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    [​IMG]

    Which resulted in the following:
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    Next, they sent us images yesterday of the car with the exhaust removed!

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Now we get to work designing the actual exhaust itself, as mentioned earlier we will post in here with any updates!
     
  19. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,299
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    Bas
    See attached the MS racing exhaust + manifoldd. It's equal length but not 6-1. Poor quality images, sadly the only ones I have, but the manifold is titanium.

    https://imgur.com/PyokzCb
    https://imgur.com/croCZPx

    Not sure why they won't attach properly, maybe because they're GIF's for some bizarre reason, maybe someone else can save and attach them properly onto the site so they won't get lost in space.

    Wonderful project and I hope you guys achieve the true F1 note that you seek (IMO the Jwolf-MS racing are the only aftermarket ones I've heard that truly capture the sound...the rest are just NOISE).
     
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  20. ScuderiaCarParts

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    Bas - THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
    We've been unable to find any images of the MS exhaust until now, I'll be sending these over to the guys at Capristo immediately

    Where did you get them from??

    I'll also re-upload them in non-GIF form for everyone below:
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  21. mrknowitallf40

    mrknowitallf40 Formula Junior

    Feb 20, 2005
    303
    While it might look cool, all that unshielded exhaust tubing is bound to have a deterimental effect on the wiring, the chassis,and anything plastic or painted. It's also bound to raise the intake temperature and affect the power output. While it might look cool, a proper heat shielded exhaust with a waffled SS header blanket would be more appropriate. I have yet to see any aftermarket Ferrari exhaust system that is the ultimate in materials, design, welding, and heat management. The ultimate exhaust? 100% inconel, heat shielded, purged, and Tig welded, with Inconel v-band clamps. If your gonna expose the pipes like that they are gonna have to be at least 321 SS and plasma sprayed with Yittrium Oxide. Of course Inconel is the ultimate. Tubi have sold these in the past for the F40 and F50. Wrapping, coating, or heat shielding SS only guarantees future failure. There is a reason the factory manifolds are best shielded, but it also the source of failure. I wouldn't want that uninsulated system blasting out all that radiant heat to my priceless super cars engine compartment. What are you proposing for materials, welding, and heat management? What is the material and construction of the flanges? 304 SS? Is the tubing seamless?
     
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  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I saved them years ago from the MS racing website. They're a work of art! And obviously the noise that comes from them is absolutely amazing...truly captivates that F1 engine....F1 noise!
     
  23. 275GTB

    275GTB Formula 3

    Jan 12, 2010
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    London
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    Mark McCracken
  24. ScuderiaCarParts

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    At this stage all we're focusing on is the architecture of the exhaust itself - with regards to materials/manufacturing process this will all be determined once the final design has been finalised. But these are all great points and we shall be discussing this very quandary with Capristo themselves shortly and updating you all!
     
  25. Murcielago_Boy

    Murcielago_Boy Formula Junior

    May 27, 2004
    495
    UK
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    The Dark Lord
    Great find man. I've always wondered why other F50's don't make the noise of that Best Motoring F50!
     
    Bas likes this.

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