Hi, I finally got the brakes (Master Cyl) and front wheel bearing done yesterday. I went to test drive today and have a new issue. Car will start normally and run fine. Warms up and keeps running. However, after a quick 10 minute test ride around my streets, I noticed that the water temp was a bit higher than normal. Not too high, just past center on the gauge. Since the car sat a long time in my garage before I got to the brake repairs, I thought I should check the coolant level to be sure nothing had leaked out over time. Let it cool down a bit and then opened the cap on the expansion tank. Good pressure. Nice. Coolant level seemed fine. Closed it back up. However, now I restarted the car and it runs great for about 15 seconds and then sounds like it's either starving for fuel or rich condition which causes it to stall. Restart - same thing. Good idle for about 15 seconds and then sputters and stalls. Let the car cool for about 2 hours, started it and it idled in my drive way fine. Kept it there until the radiator fans kicked in. Good and warm. Basically it was running fine again at idle for about 10 mins. I shut it down. Waited about 4 or 5 mins and started it again. Yep, ran for 15 seconds and then sputtered again and stalled. This all seemed to happen after I opened the expansion cap. Coincidence? Or did I help my temp switch crap out somehow? Pulled the connector off the CSI and tried again. Ruled out the cold start injector because it stalled again after a smooth idle for about 15 seconds with it disconnected. Could it be the temp switch not sending the correct signal to the ECU once the car is shut off after being warmed up so that on restart it's running too rich or lean causing it to stall? It seems like a time delay which made me think of the CSI and timer. But disconnecting it had no affect on the problem. I have read about the timer for the CSI, but since I disconnected the CSI, and it still stalls after 15 seconds or so, I figured the CSI probably not the issue. Ideas? Does the temp switch affect the FI that drastically that it would stall the car? Also, why would it run from cold to complete warm up with no issue, but then when I shut it off for a few minutes and restart it then stalls after 10 or 15 seconds and will continue to do this until it's cold condition again. Thanks all for any ideas.
I suspect it's coincidence. I'd suggest starting where you recently did some work; check for a vacuum leak, especially around the front braking booster.
I can do that... But the car has not been driven in a very long time, so I'm thinking it's another component. Besides, it will start cold, run for miles and then only has this issue upon restarting when warm/hot. And when I restart it when hot, it idles perfectly for the 10 to 15 seconds, and then it's almost like a switch is thrown, the car starts to sputter for a few seconds and stalls out. Not sure how the vacuum line to the brake booster would cause these symptoms. But will check it out regardless. Thanks
What year/model/version? Your profile says "1983 308 GTSi QV" -- is that correct? But has nothing about version -- US, euro (unmodified), euro federalized for US?
Sorry.. yes. 1983 QV US, unmodified. Strange that it will keep running, but only stalls after restarting on a hot engine.
A 1983 US version QV is K-Jet without Lambda -- so no injection ECU to go wrong. The only thermoswitch (which runs the yellow light in the dash) controls electrovalves for the cold fast idle system, the EGR system, and the air injection system -- and none of those systems (even if messed up) would affect operation after warm restarting (except the cold fast idle and that would just give a warm fast idle). When you say "Strange that it will keep running..." do you mean that, if started from cold, the yellow light is "on" and things are fine (with a fast idle), then, after a bit of time, the yellow light goes "off" (and the idle reduces) and things stay fine, and as long as you continue to keep driving without shutting the engine off things stay fine? When you are warm, and having this trouble, have you tried unplugging the safety switch and confirming (audibly) that the fuel pump will run with just the key "on". The fuel pump has two modes operated by different electrical paths: 1) it runs when the starter motor is cranking, and 2) it runs when the key is "on" and the safety switch is open (i.e., air is actually entering the engine). If the first mode is working, but the second mode is not working when warm = you could get that kind of symptom -- i.e., the system pressurizes OK during starter motor cranking (so starts up), but when you release the key to "on" the fuel pressure will decay until the engine stops (so runs OK for a few seconds, but then quits). Just a thought -- and something easy to check.
Hi Steve, Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, pretty much. The car starts fine. yellow light is on, but does not stay on very long at all. Engine is cold now as it's been in the garage all night and I'll restart in about an hour when I get a break from work. It doesn't really seem to fast idle upon start up like you might expect. But it never really did. The yellow light comes on, but goes out very quickly. But it will keep running fine until I shut it down. Then after it's been warmed up by either idling in the driveway or taking it around the block a few times, I shut it down. Then upon restart, it starts as normally does, idles nice and clean for about 10 seconds or so and then sputters and stalls. Sometimes it sputters for 5 or 10 seconds before it stalls. Other times, it stalls much quicker once it starts to sputter. Could it be timing related? Seems to run fine until I shut it down though. I would like to drive it on a longer drive, but I'm worried about it stranding me.
That cold fast idle system often gets disabled by Owners, so maybe yours is. Please reread my edited post about confirming/denying the warm fuel pump operation and report back.
Wait a minute, you might be onto something here. One of the repairs I did before the brakes was to replace the fuel pump and fuel filter as the car sat and the gas was not in good shape. Fuel pump was stuck so I replaced it along with the filter over a month ago. But since the car idled and revved fine after replacing I thought that repair was successful. But I could not take it for a test drive and don't think I had tried to restart immediately after I had let it idle a few different times checking for leaks. I wonder if the fuel accumulator diaphragm is subject for investigation? Maybe it's not holding enough residual pressure? But would it start after warm up, run for 10 or so seconds and then quit? I'll search for your post about confirming/denying the warm fuel pump operation and report back. I'll also try to figure out how to test the fuel pressure (residual). I have a fuel pressure gage, but not sure where to connect it as I have not done that test on this car before. Thank you, John
Ah.. I see what you mean about testing the fuel pump on warm condition. yes, I pulled the safety connector when arm and put the key in "on" and the fuel pump runs.
And then did you try starting the car warm with the fuel pump running to see if you had the same trouble?
New development... for the worse. Now it will not stay running from a cold start. It starts, runs for about 10 seconds and then dies. So it does not appear to be a warm start issue only. I did hear the fuel pump spinning when it stalled very briefly and then cuts out when the engine dies (as it should). I'm able to start it and put my ear near the intake on the side of the car. When it stalls, I can hear the fuel pump briefly and then cut out when stalls. When I pull the blue safety plug off the fuel regulator and turn the key to on, I can pressurize the fuel system. Then start the car and it runs a bit longer than stalls again. But I only did this a few times, but not close to engine warm condition. I am wondering if i have some gunk in the WUR or fuel regulator from the fuel being bad previously. But what does not makes sense is that I was able to idle the care numerous times for 10 minutes at a time while on the lift to check for oil leaks as I had repaired the oil sump gasket a couple of weeks ago. ANd that was after I replaced the fuel pump and filter. It would idle for as long as i wanted. Blipping the gas pedal from time to time. No issues. This all started after the first test drive yesterday after I opened the coolant reserve tank to check level.
Also, just now when it stalled on cold condition, I tried this: Car stalled.. Turned key off Removed connector from safety switch (pump spinning now) Started the car Car stalled Fuel pump still on Turn key off, fuel pump stopped. So to me, the fuel pump was pumping before start, after start and still spinning after stall.
And when I pulled the safety connector and turn the key to "on". Pump spins. I can hear the fuel pressure building and some minor "squeals" and or vibration in either the regulator or WUR. At least that where it sounds like the noises are coming from. I do not have a Jetronic fuel pressure test kit unfortunately to see what the pressure is.
Shame it isn't something simple. Since you don't haven't thrown a rod out the side of the block , you're left with the same place we always start the diagnosis -- measuring fuel and/or spark performance.
Agree with Steve that you need to methodically check things off. But if I were a bettin' man...I'd say it's the accumulator. Especially if there was some gummed up junk in there before.
Okay... per Steve's latest input, it was something simple... yet very puzzling! So I had put 4 gallons of fresh gas in the tanks after I put the new fuel pump and filter in. I had been working on other items and had been idling on the lift to bring the car up to temp several times. My fuel gage was indicating "empty" the entire time I had it on the lift for the last month. I figured that the gunk in the tank had created a stuck sending unit float arm. Not surprising. When I took it out for the test drive and came back, the stalling situation described above started to happen. However, while on the lift, the gauge was at empty and I assumed it was a stuck float since the gas was bad previously. During the test drive, and before it starting stalling, the gas gauge came back to life and indicates 1/8 of a tank. Okay... good news! It's working. Well, after this stalling continued to plague me and after checking as many of the components as I can thus far, my lovely wife said "maybe you are out of gas!?". I said "No, in fact, the gauge started to work on the test drive and it shows 1/8th of a tank." So I kept searching for a problem. After a while longer, I decided to put more gas in the tank as I was probably going to have to take it to a shop to trouble shoot the stalling issue. Now here's the strange thing. When I added 5 more gallons to the tank, the gas gauge went back to zero or "empty". I was like, WTF? It's reading backwards???? Sure enough, I started the car and it runs perfectly. I had actually managed to run out of gas when I pulled back into my driveway after the test drive! Lucky, I guess as I was at home and not on the road when it died. But frustrating that the gauge is reading backwards now??? I have no idea how that can be happening as I didn't touch the fuses or any of the wiriing on the gauge, so it must be the sending unit in the tank (corrosion I'm guessing) In the tank I assume. But I still don't understand why it would reverse the indication from full to empty. Any suggestions as to why this is happening? What's also strange, is that when I put in the 5 Gallons and the gauge moved to "empty", the orange fuel light does not come on. I'm embarrassed to say all of this was due to being out of gas. But given the very whacky operation of the fuel gauge, I can manage to forgive myself. I am thinking that the car had enough fuel to start each time, but not enough to keep it running obviously. After I put the 5 gallons in on Friday, I was able to drive it for a good 30 min test run with no issues. Filled with more fresh gas and continued to run fine. Gauge indicating empty still however. So now I assume I will need to pull the sending unit out to inspect, repair or replace.
