360/430 brake pad compatibility and tracking | FerrariChat

360/430 brake pad compatibility and tracking

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Scotty, Aug 29, 2006.

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  1. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Veteran
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    #1 Scotty, Aug 29, 2006
    Hi all. I have a track day coming up in a few weeks--it will be my first one this year in the 360. Last year my brakes were fading bad after the first session. I've done some reading, and feel like I am up on the appropriate "save your brakes" techniques, but my skill level is also up from last year (I drive an modified M3 in advanced run groups most of the time).

    Ferodo 2500's and high temp brake fluid would seem to be the distillation of the search function's wisdom. The issue is my 430 should be soon on the water--I don't want to invest in a set of pads unless they would also fit the 430--so I guess that is question one.

    Question 2: Can I just swap front pads out for the track (this is a somewhat common M3 trick that saves a little coin)? And how advisable is this?

    Question 3: How hard are the pads to swap?

    Thanks--Scott
     
  2. velocityengineer

    velocityengineer Formula Junior

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    #2 velocityengineer, Aug 30, 2006
    Hi Scott,

    Your 360 OE brake pads are a Ferodo type. So going with a DS 2500 or DS3000 with OE rotors should be fine. There may be some slight vibration at first as the pads settle in. Bed them very well-before getting on track(!). pads of similar compound families can be used on the same rotors succesfully.

    DS3000 will probably eat the rotors in 1 or 2 trackdays depending on how hard you run. The 360 (and same setup on 430) is just not robust enough for multiple track sessions. Drilled rotors may crack.

    Replacing pads is very easy (thats the beauty of race-type calipers) remove wheel, pull the two pad retaining pins, remove pad springs, replace pads (retract pistons first) and re-assemble. No problem. Girodisc has a great piston retraction tool if you need.

    Many guys have run very well and like the Porterfield R4S pads as well, not as agressive as the Ferodos, but can be used on the street.
    Pagid 4-2-1 pads are also very good, but very pricey.


    Use a good fluid like a Motul, Castrol, or Brembo.

    now for the plug- Girodisc has everything you need for this, as well as bolt on upgraded 2 pc rotors and titanium pad backing plates to resist fluid boil.

    Give Martin at Girodisc a call, he will set you up and I will have him put in a free bottle of the Brembo racing fluid if you buy one. - wow I sound like a car salesman.

    Cheers
    Eric
     
  3. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #3 enjoythemusic, Aug 30, 2006
    Scotty,

    Eric is spot on. Eric is also being a bit humble as he has been (and is) a brake engineer for a long, long time. He was the original brake designer for certain Fcars :)

    For the 308GTS QV i use Ferodo DS2500 front and DS3000 for the rear. Long story short, the different pads aid in brake bias balance. The DS3000 do indeed enjoy eating rotors, but also have amazing coefficient of grip. The DS2500 are great and those plus changing to better brake fluid (Motul 600) you should be good to go. Have ordered many things from Girodisc and they are awesome guys!
     
  4. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #4 Gary(SF), Aug 30, 2006
    The 430 and the 360 take exactly the same pads, so no worries there. The DS2500s are great because they are streetable and fine for track use also. I was amazed at how much better the 430 brakes are than the 360...I knew Ferrari had changed the disc, but I hadn't expected that big a difference.

    Gary
     
  5. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Veteran
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    #5 Scotty, Aug 30, 2006
    Thanks Guys! Great info. I have what I think are several excellent articles on bedding in new brakes, and I am familiar with the process on my M3.

    Any thoughts on doing front pads only? (I know it is an expensive car, I know track days are a rare experience, I can afford to do front and rear, etc.--but if it won't disturb the brake bias, etc. it would be certainly easier to only remove 2 wheels instead of 4 before and after the track days to swap pads.)
     
  6. enjoythemusic

    enjoythemusic F1 World Champ

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    #6 enjoythemusic, Aug 30, 2006
    Scotty,

    First and foremost SAFETY IS KING. Would NEVER be on a track with a less than 100% mechanically sound car. The life you save may be your own. Your car has plenty of 'go,' but you also need BALANCED stopping. Also, any advice i give is strictly at your own risk. i take zero responsibility for whatever you choose to do, etc etc yada yada usual legal disclaimers. Remember: your life is at stake and perhaps that of others on the track too. Anything safety releated IS NOT the time to save money and/or time. Please nsure you car is at 100%.

    If it was me, i would never change a properly balanced car to that of having one end of the car with higher coefficient brake pads which would thereby change/unbalance the brake bias. It is really easy to change pads in a Brembo setup (at least mine) and i would 'uprate' all four evenly or change nothing and keep stock setup.

    No matter what you decide, change brake fluid to Motul or other higher heat rated fluid. Have seen 456, 308, and others cook their brakes at the track. You have a lot of HP/TQ my friend, so make sure you also have the ability to consistently stop as well.

    The life you save may be your own... and guys like me who are on the track with you. Pleeeeeeeease, with sugar on top and a cherry.

    First and foremost SAFETY IS KING.

    First and foremost SAFETY IS KING.

    First and foremost SAFETY IS KING.
     
  7. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Veteran
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    #7 Scotty, Aug 30, 2006
    Not to worry Steve--I will take your advice to heart. I wouldn't want to jeopardize anyone (including myself) on the track. FWIW, I'm the guy who lifts long before the corner at the end of the long straights (though, obviously, never in an unsafe way or if someone is behind me). To me, standing on the gas and/or standing on the brake isn't the major fun part of a track day, it is working the car through the corners that is the challenge. Nevertheless, on a hot day at the end of a long run even that more restrained driving style can stress the stock 360 brakes.
     
  8. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #8 Gary(SF), Aug 30, 2006
    Apparently Ferrari has significantly upgraded the fluid in the 430, and I have had no problems with it on track.

    Gary
     
  9. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #9 Gary(SF), Aug 30, 2006
    Definitely change all four. I have found pad wear is similar front to rear (as is tire wear), so the rears are working pretty hard.

    Gary
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #10 Rifledriver, Aug 30, 2006

    When they came out with the space shuttle brakes they upgraded the fluid as well. I suspect, the production line being what it is, all cars get the same stuff. It's good but as so many of their products it is very "spensive" to buy the OE stuff.
     
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Aircon, Aug 30, 2006
    how much dust do they make, and are they noisy?
     
  12. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    #12 Gary(SF), Aug 30, 2006

    Dust is very similar to stock, maybe a little less. Some very minor squealing with light pedal, like when you approach a stop sign, but it is very minor.

    Gary
     
  13. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 Aircon, Aug 30, 2006
    Thanks for that. I'm going to put them on my streetable 355Ch. Hopefully I don't get disk glazing like I did with padgid blues.
     
  14. Scotty

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    #14 Scotty, Aug 30, 2006
    Checked out Girodisc's website. In making my "change the front pads only" comments, I was assuming (given that the race pads for my M3 were almost $400) that pads for the 360 would be in the thousands. It turns out Ferodos are $250 for all four wheels--what a screaming deal.

    I just gotta decide what fluid to use. I also did some research, and there seems to be a range of opinions on whether an SD2 is needed to bleed the system. This was further confused by a call to a local exotic shop (no SD2, but "they can work around it") and then the dealer, who first said you couldn't use any fluid other than DOT 4.1, but then rethought this and said that as long as you are going to "better" fluid, it is OK. Of course, they had no idea what to use, so it would be a bring your own deal.

    Any comments?
     
  15. Blocktrader

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    #15 Blocktrader, Aug 31, 2006

    Castrol SRF if you don't mind spending the $.
     
  16. Gary(SF)

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    #16 Gary(SF), Aug 31, 2006
    Yes, the Ferodo pads are very cost effective. Again, personally I wouldn't (and didn't) change the brake fluid, but if you feel you must, Motul 600 is a great choice without spending exorbitant prices.

    Gary
     
  17. jag-oo-r

    jag-oo-r Formula Junior
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    #17 jag-oo-r, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
    All:
    Countless threads with posts containing "430 brakes" in this track section of the forum. However, this is the only thread with those words in the title, so I chose this one, in case others search the same way I have.

    Previous owner recently replaced rotors and installed stoptech Sport pads. They're like new (in fact, i have the rears in hand and was planning to install them this weekend). Any reviews of these pads at the track?
    https://www.vividracing.com/blog/centric-introduces-the-all-new-stoptech-sport-and-street-brake-pads/


    Assuming the pads aren't up to track use, and realizing this thread is old, would the suggested ferodo DS2500 pads still be the recommended pad for DE and street use?

    I'm not a novice at the track, but I'm not a pro. (I AM a PCA instructor, and turn competitive lap times, but I don't race). I'm not planning to push the 430 hard at the track, but I'm also not going to be that guy who let's everyone pass him and then watch it show up on YouTube later. Hehe.

    If the brakes are up to it, I'd prefer a good dual-use pad, so i don't have to swap pads and bed them each time. But I'm not opposed, if there isn't a good dual-use pad that'll take some heat.

    I'm planning to flush the brakes with motul rbf600 (I've had great success with this in my track car) unless you suggest otherwise. I see conflicting information: CAN I bleed brakes without an SD3? I assume I can, it simply won't flush the ABS part of the system, right?

    Thanks in advance for your help! Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
     
  18. Scotty

    Scotty F1 Veteran
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    #18 Scotty, May 21, 2020
    Limited response. I did like the Ferodo 2500's. But a huge word of caution (> 10 year instructor for PCA, FCA, BMW CCA, etc.), the 430 front suspension will ride the bump stops under maximal hard breaking. If the track surface is smooth this isn't a huge issue, but if the surface has bumps the 430 wants to swap ends in a big way. This somewhat is the typical scenario--upgrade one thing, expose weakness in others. My point, I guess, is that the 360 and 430 are great cars that I loved, but they suck above 90% on the track--as almost any street car from that era would.
     
    jag-oo-r likes this.
  19. jag-oo-r

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    #19 jag-oo-r, May 21, 2020
    Good to know. I'll approach that really easy.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
     

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