Maserati Khamsin | Page 329 | FerrariChat

Maserati Khamsin

Discussion in 'Maserati' started by Maeter, Feb 24, 2008.

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  1. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
    342
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Roger the Dodger
    Hello AMLC

    I think you are right, the cone cut/tap ground dashboard (Zapfenschliff) is quite unique on a Khamsin.
    They must be two different cars.
    Funny enough I have a picture of a red car with the same wooden steering wheel, but then these aftermarket wheels are easily obtainable
     
  2. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    597
    Hello Roger,

    Thanks for checking!

    I didn´t know about the “Zapfenschliff” but if that’s another clue then that’s even better. I had photos from chassis #1264 from post #1137 (you probably have more photos!) and I think it doesn’t have the “Zapfenschliff” there yet.

    I decided to look at the photos of Classic Team West when you mentioned the carrozzeria number 550168, which would be surprising for chassis #1126. I know there are no strict rules but that would be really surprising. I didn’t find the number right away in the photos (it’s a miracle you found that!) but after a while I saw it. For carrozzeria 550168 a chassis in the range of 1250-1270 would be not surprising, and when I saw #1264 (steering wheel, mirrors, German licence plate starting with K) I thought that must be it. You are probably right about the obtainability of the steering wheel but not many Khamsins have a steering wheel like that.

    I think I also found another clue to identify the gold car as #1264. If you look at the rear lights in post #1137 (where the car is still black in 2009) you can see that the rear lights are closer together and lower than on EURO (or most converted US) versions. For the gold car the same applies: https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82101310_145397233577588_1895714937146179584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=SuGeE3yfALkAX_9AnOn&_nc_ht=scontent-amt2-1.xx&oh=c48ac077ef52c5ea8db663c6d2e1b6d0&oe=5EEA838E

    The red car is indeed probably another Khamsin, don’t know which chassis, maybe the front bumper (usually more integrated in the nose) and the white indicators are clues to work with?
     
  3. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
    342
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    Roger the Dodger
    Hi AMLC

    these are the pictures I found: the black version has red carpets, the gold version has black carpets, earlier photos of the black version have plain black facia;
    good point about the carrozzeria number!

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  4. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    #8204 Nembo1777, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
    Hello AMLC and Roger, I guess you should now be nicknamed the Zapfenschliffers;-)! What a mouthful that word! I initially thought you were referring to the Hindenburg or the Bismarck, if you want to verify if the latter has Zapfenschliff is can be found at the bottom of the sea 600kms west of Brest, Britanny;-) I note the odd dashboard in your photos. Obviously when I saw the car 11 years ago at the Oldtimer GP it did not have that as shown in the photos I posted in the post 1137 it did not have that modified interior: 2009 photo below.

    There are a couple of K's with wooden dashboards, one of which I think was made by MIE. I had not seen this kind as shown by you in your photos on a K before.

    Anyway red or black carpets in my view it is the same car, black repainted to gold and carpet color changed at that time I assume. Yes looking at all the photos I am sure it is that one. good that they finished the exhaust raising on the back by cutting off the US bumper shock housings, in effect finishing the bumper conversion which had not been entirely done. It is a major job to
    cut these I can tell you, having converted 3 K's, a miracle I still have ten fingers. So a color carpet change in the grand scheme of all the work done on that car is nothing...so yes that is 1264.

    Regarding the red car if you post a link or photos I will try to identify it, thanks in advance.

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  5. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    597
    Yes that's a great word :)

    This is the red car (I found only one photo on Facebook): https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/76726011_116030256514286_5434341515977555968_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=SGnpij35IJgAX-fN4EY&_nc_ht=scontent-ams4-1.xx&oh=bd251658350230f052efe3384b424b64&oe=5EEF21FB
     
  6. rga

    rga Formula Junior

    Jul 14, 2012
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    Roger the Dodger
    Sorry, I wasn't sure about the english translation, so I thought to add the german word for it that I know.

    The red car ist very similar to 1186, especially the position and shape of the front bumper
    but there are differences, white indicator lights vs white/orange ones, and round sidelights missing on 1186...
    any other guesses?
     
  7. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    No other photos of it on their site or FB page...That bumper sticking out too much and the lights themselves sticking out of it, making them vulnerable rings a bell in my head, I have seen pics of it before but I can't place it right now.
     
  8. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Hi Roger, it was an amusing word to learn:) I will dig through my files, I have one suspect but need to run out the door now.
     
  9. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    998
    Referred to as "Engine Turning" or "Jeweling" in the English-speaking automotive world, this was a very popular machining technique in the 1920s and 30s.
    Here it looks as superb on the instrument panel of this pre-war Mercedes Grand Prix car, as it is out of place in a K---IMHO.

    PS---No. Not a fan of it in the Veyron either!


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  10. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    597
    How many Khamsins were sold in Belgium? Here is a photo of two Khamsins in front of a showroom in Belgium (late seventies/early eighties), probably in Dendermonde: http://bittercars.com/articles/articles_item.php?sort=issue&id=164

    It's a story about Antoine van den Abbeele. According to the story he started his import of exotic cars in Belgium with Iso Rivolta, then Bitter, and then, in the late seventies/early eighties, Maserati. He loved the design of the Khamsin.
    It also tells the story of his son Dirk, who went to a Concours d’élégance in Brussels in the early eighties with a Khamsin and received the first prize at the Grote Markt. Unfortunately there’s no photo in the article of that event.
     
  11. Nembo1777

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    Good morning AMLC, 7 Khamsins were sold new in Belgium. This is according to data given me by Ermanno Cozza during a summer 2005 interview at the factory.

    Belgium has had its share of interesting importers in various eras. I met a member of the Mannes family while at l'Officina last spring just outside of Brussels.

    There was also Monsieur Staumont who was the importer during much of the Khamsin era. Cozza recalled that Staumont considered that Maseratis were cars for Gentlemen and Ladies and should therefore be driveable with a hat on, i.e. have enough seat bottom to ceiling space for that...so his initial Khamsin test verdict was not good because it failed the hat test!:)
    But once he got used to driving one he saw what a brilliant car it was and how much progress it brought compared to Gibli and Indy.

    Funny how there are photos of 50's, 60's concours but from the 80's very little was preserved in a way to be shared, all those photos sitting in boxes ans drawers...

    I once consolidated the database of another car (of which just under 800 were made, off topic in case anyone guesses), a paid job, about ten years ago.

    After one week I had taken a database with 1000 photos and text files to not much more text except this car sold here that one there that one restored, that one destroyed etc etc and...10000 photos. I had been asked NOT to make choices just insert each cars photo in its folder by chassis number. 1000 to 10000 sounds great right? Wrong.

    The reason why the ten fold increase was not an increase in quality is that when we had film we were cautious, even parsimonious with our photography and every shot counted because we only had so much film with rolls of 24 or 36 photos and it cost to buy and then to develop...

    With digital photography every idiot can not only take decent photos but there is no cost and no limit to how many photos you take. I mean when I did three articles in the US in 2018 the pro photog for the first car during one day took...8000 photos eight thousand of one car, machine gun mode! At least that is a pro even though he condemns himself to hours of choosing thereafter.

    Amateurs however particularly at events take tons of mediocre photos -I call it photographic diarrhea sorry- but then these photos have to be dealt with...

    So the photo database had gone up ten fold in quantity but absolutely zero in quality since the info conveyed by the photos be they quality shots or just car condition shots was already there in the database before. Countless repeat photos. Another problem is that people after an event don't sort their photos and discard the insignificant ones but put them in virtual folders...in remote servers which sit somewhere with air conditioning running 24/7 using up a lot of resources or junk data. Of course to be fair it takes time to sort photos and we say I will do it soon...hmmmm maybe I need to go through the thousands of K photos I have...err when I have time...guilty as charged!:)
     
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  12. AMLC

    AMLC Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    597
    According to the article Staumont (who was importer since late 1963) started to lose interest when the Biturbo was introduced in december 1981, because he wasn’t interested in the higher production numbers that De Tomaso was aiming for. The article does not mention the hat test :). Then for a very short time Claude Dubois was the Maserati importer (he also imported De Tomaso) but his plans suddenly changed and then Willy Mannes took over in 1985.
    So I guess van den Abbeele was a dealer and Staumont the importer in the late seventies / early eighties.

    Yes i can understand what you say about photos, many taken at the same events. One photo of the Khamsin at that concours in Brussels could be more interesting (to us) than the 8000 of a recent photoshoot. Maybe search engines will never completely understand things like that and selection by “humans” will always remain necessary (but now I’m off topic I’m afraid :)).
     
  13. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    I have interviewed Dubois and he was only briefly in charge, depositor of the licence as it were, he sold it to Mannes because he had other plans, he was de Tomaso Mangusta and then Pantera importer. Dubois is a very upstanding and interesting man and a very competent racer, he raced American cars and even 250GTO's. Yes Abbeele must have been a delaer I never heard of him before.
    Re late 70's to 90's paper photos they have not come to be scanned yet but it is a bit like cars no one wants and which eventually become youngtimers I am sure people will eventually scan the more important ones.
     
  14. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2017
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    Serge
    Terrible...
     
  15. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
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    Destroying magnificent works of automotive art; what is wrong with these people?
     
  16. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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  17. Nembo1777

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    #8218 Nembo1777, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
    One photo I took that intrigued me was of Khamsin AM120US1250 (rosso fuoco/nero 13/03/78) which is in the amazing Manoir de l'automobile museum in Loheac north western France. I took these photos in October 2007.

    A Us car that has been in Scottsdale and then Holland, sold at auction in France long ago. Nothing special about that...but when I looked at the back the surprise came. It has had a Euro bumper conversion which would imply a thick plexiglas rear vertical glass in the trunk....but no.
    This one had actual glass!
    I have never seen that, I mean US version with he full one piece glass with no lights (the lights being located further down) are all glass...but on a car with the lights in the glass, i.e all Euro Khamsins, either born Euro or converted I had NEVER seen that, only plexiglas.

    I asked Fabio Collina of Maserati Classiche a few days and he also confirmed he had never seen that....so it can only mean that someone had it made by St Gobain...it could be Michel Hommel the French media tycoon owner of numerous car magazines, of the museum which has hundreds of cars, including this and a dozen other Maseratis etc. He might have access to the right contacts for special order glass not from some special order entity but from St Gobain themselves, a major glass producer for car manufacturers...He made the Berlinette Echappement in the 1990's a spartan sports car a bit like the Alpine A110 so he was a bona fide manufacturer, that might have created a connection...

    The Museum can be visited just before or after going to Le Mans, it is not too far in terms of traveling from another country to the 24 hours or Le Mans Classic, it is well worth seeing. Of course it may still be close due to the virus situation but museums are due to reopen soon if not already.

    https://www.manoir-automobile.fr/home/


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  18. Froggie

    Froggie Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2017
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    Nice observation.
    That special order may have cost a fortune!
    And strange that it could be fitted with no regulatory issue in terms of safety...
     
  19. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    998
    Dear Moderator---
    Please make Marc happy!

    Thanks.
     
  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    LOL:) Will contact moderator now.
     
  21. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    #8222 Nembo1777, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
    For sure but for someone who CREATED AND OWNED a car company you can make a deal when you place your normal production order for car glass sets.

    I think he just had it made and installed it, end of story: how is a gendarme by the side of the road going to know the difference? Maybe in Germany, Switzerland or Singapore there would have been tech inspection visits, study blah blah blah and a stamp on a piece of paper at the end but in a latin country...non Monsieur:) In any case it is a safety improvement since it is actual safety glass.

    I will enquire about it, see if I can find out more.
     
  22. Nembo1777

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    #8224 Nembo1777, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
    Well the moderator just wrote to me that they "don't reject posts for inaccuracy: correct it on thread."

    1-Done, the monstrosity in post 8214 is NOT based on a Khamsin, the website which posted that photo or the sender were confused, they also call a white Khamsin an Urraco by the way so that is a further example of their inaccuracy.

    We can forget about it and move on:)

    2-1186 just mentioned by AMLC was owned for decades by the same man in southern California and when he got too old to take care of it it was bought by Beverly Hills car club, I think he had been working on it, doing his bumper conversion because this is how it looked when they were offering it.

    It was then bought by a Frenchman living in the south of France and after that it ended up in Benelux.

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  23. boralogist

    boralogist Formula Junior

    Jun 21, 2005
    998
    Hey Tech Guys---Ivan et. al.

    1---Need US vs Euro cam timing---Euro headers now installed!
    2---Do I need a different distributor or just dial-in new ignition timing---which should be what???
    3---US spec 125 Weber main jets---leave them alone/change to 130 or what???
    4---Pointers/what am I missing???

    I just want a Euro spec car that spins (relatively!) freely to redline and is happy cruising at 110-120 mph.

    Please share your expertise/experience.
    TIA.
    B.
     

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