"Motorsport and Esports stars ready to take on Le Mans 24 Virtual" | Page 2 | FerrariChat

"Motorsport and Esports stars ready to take on Le Mans 24 Virtual"

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by lorenzobandini, Jun 2, 2020.

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  1. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #26 lorenzobandini, Jun 15, 2020
    Yikes! (again) We agree again. :)

    I have been an ardent arguer against the game/sim racing when so many find it a true "sport" (aie yi-yi...) and have attempted to watch on occasion only to switch off after a few minutes.

    This weekends Le Mans Virtual did, however, have me going back occasionally when on ESPN2 and I had T&S on most of the 24V.
    The one thing I take from it on a truly positive note is the hope that it is an omen of things to come in September as I'm hoping Rebellion can close out it's racing participation with a win at LM.
    'Have been a sentimental favourite of the "red, white and gold" (how I remenber them) since seeing
    them at Sebring 10ish years ago.

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  2. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #27 Bas, Jun 15, 2020

    I see where you're coming from. My own POV as a sim racer:

    Lets start with the positives: I love how serious it was taken by real names in the business. From drivers to teams, to commentators! We had some BIG BIG names in the race. I liked how teams where split up much like they do Pro/Am class. I love the fact that we can see a much clearer image of the driver and his reactions during the race. From utter delight on winning a battle to the real life frustrations (see Max Verstappen when a series of software glitches ruined their race). \

    I like the accessibility. Not much is really stopping someone to become a sim racer. The investment needed to get going is far lower than even the cheapest car racing sport there is. If you're good enough and win enough high profile events, or set enough record laps...you can find yourself invited to an event as this, to race along multiple F1 world champions, Indy 500 winners, Le Mans winners....say what you want, but that's very cool.

    Now the Negatives:

    I agree with you, no matter how many big names they throw at it...it is not the real thing. The element of danger is gone. The tyre feel still isn't quite there yet. The hero-ism isn't really there. It's knowing that, that's where the disconnect is. It's a bit like watching Rush the film, I didn't jump with joy when Hunt (one of my all time F1 heroes) won the title. But I would have watching the real thing. You know it's not quite the real thing.

    There where some software issues on the organisation side that really shouldn't have happened (Alonso's penalty for example, which he received as he was entering the pit, couldn't put fuel in because it was over-ridden and he subsequently ran out of fuel later that lap. Or Verstappen when there was server lag at the wrong time for him, putting him in the wall several times. This is after already losing a substantial lead they had early on due to the red flag). Of course it was the first time an event this large and this public was held by Rfactor so they can only work at improving it. I suppose it's no different than a mechanical failure in real life or red flag period ruining your advantage.

    ---

    Whilst for me virtual sim racing can't replace the real thing, probably ever, it's something I thoroughly enjoy. The high quality and realism of hardware available these days is incredible, such as replicating identical brake pressure as you would in a real car, even to the point of simulating (through brake feel!) the moment your brake pads make contact with the disc, direct drive wheels able to replicate the exact forces of real world cars, to identical steering wheels used in real life...The sims themselves are constantly evolving and now with so many pro drivers becoming much more (publicly) involved in sim racing, I can see the product only evolving for the positive. iRacing's tyre model has received a lot of criticism so I'm sure with pro drivers working closer together with the iRacing team it will improve soon. The same goes with manufacturers, they will be more keen to give their cars' data earlier to the likes of iRacing to make accurate representations of their racing cars.

    iRacing would've been the better platform to host this race on but it has had a couple of drawbacks, perhaps the most series is that not many of the 2019+ LMP/GTE cars are available at this point in time, and it also doesn't have rain available yet (this I believe is in the works).

    I didn't watch the full thing, only parts of it as my dreadful internet went from bad to worse over time, and I just don't fancy watching (any) racing at 144p....I watched around 4-5 hours of it.
     
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  3. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    #28 Isobel, Jun 15, 2020
    Same. And I have the gnawing feeling there’s probably a group of 12 year old ringers who could easily kick everybody’s behind if their parents would let them stay up all night....;)
     
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  4. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    #29 rob lay, Jun 16, 2020
    I'm VERY curious the stats of the real drivers vs. sim drivers in the race.

    it seemed to me they dumbed down the handling and drivability of the cars. After 10 hours the cars were way too close with each other to be realistic from a sim racing perspective. That might have been the goal though as that was closer to real life results vs. if all competitors were spread many laps apart. that's one thing I like and don't like about sim racing, you can spin, but then in a lap or two be back in the pack. Real racing you make a little mistake like that and you are done or will take you much of the race to recover. Of course in real racing drivers aren't making big mistakes and able to lap after lap within tenths of each other.
     
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  5. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #30 lorenzobandini, Jun 16, 2020
    I enjoy playing/doing games/sims but to sit and watch others, as "close" as the racing may be, just doesn't come close to being as rewarding as watching the real thing.
    I discussed game/sim racing on another board and as intensely as those that insisted it was, in itself, a sport (my contention it is not), explained their position, they never addressed my repeated questions in regard to a major factor that even you (whose discussion above I respect) did not address....the multitude....nay......infinite......number of G forces one encounters while driving a race car (hell, even your most luxurious land yacht...). The most, at the moment we could ever simulate, would be to instantaneously rotate the body in directions that gravity would literally work on it for the force desired, and even then, whatever direction the force would be working on your body, it would only be a constant 1G; no fractions or multiples thereof.....

    Accelerating, braking, cornering, compression and lightness (not that there's that much elevation change, nor how rapid it's allowed, these days on the glass smooth circuits); all forces changing in direction, and amount, constantly, as of this time, cannot be simulated in a seat in front of game/sim screen(s).

    Until there's some sort of "human magnetism" (yeah, yeah; I know about the MRI; I've had eight of 'em), acting on every cell of our body's (I assume we'd have to be in some sort of chamber also for the infinite directions in which these "magnets" would have to attract us), it will not be a sport to me.

    Thus.......and I'm not degrading it for the entertainment participating provides.......it's still a game or simulation to me.
     
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  6. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #31 Bas, Jun 16, 2020
    All very true. The G forces can't be truly replicated. Closest I can see on that front is to have some sort of seat belt mechanism that tightens, somewhat simulating G forces a real driver would experience. Frex is developing a similar system even for your head, you wear a helmet and it's got a high speed tensioning system attached to it that'll simulate G forces for your neck.

    There is another system where the cockpit sits on a giant slider (and I do mean giant), and it moves on all axis to simulate G force. At 1.5G, it still doesn't get close to G forces experienced in real F1 cars. They're a 100K GBP! I guess if they utilize the seatbelt tensioner and for the helmet it would come closer to proper G force but still...not the real thing. https://www.brdsim.com/

    To me, Sim racing is a hobby not a sport. I don't understand when they call it e sports, either, but I digress. I used to play chess and I didn't call that a sport, either.
     
  7. rob lay

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    #32 rob lay, Jun 16, 2020
    I think motion/G forces overrated and really expensive. I trained on a nice iRacing setup with none of that before I visited tracks for the first time. After a few laps your mind is "moving" with the forces. It almost seems so real, even compared to motion systems that don't quite get it right 100%.
     
  8. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #33 Bas, Jun 16, 2020
    I prefer non-motion rigs myself as well. The expense is just not worth it. If a decent motion rig was a grand, yeah, it would be nice...but somewhat decent motion is 10x that already, and like you say, you don't get that much from it.

    Several F1 drivers, who easily have the money for any rig they like, have a ''simple'' non - motion rig at home. It's nice to have but not 10-100K nice.
     
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  9. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #34 lorenzobandini, Jun 16, 2020
    "Overrated"?
    How is one of the major tools employed whilst driving a race car at it's limit "overrated"?
    (*More on this below)

    Your "mind is "moving" with the forces"?
    How can your mind be moving with the forces that don't exist to it? You don't see G forces; you feel them. Every sensor in your body sends that message to your personal computer through "wires", not visuals.

    Those "sensors" are not cameras sending images of "G forces" to your eyes.

    They are every one of the billions of nerve endings that send the the "message" of the pressure from the mass of your cells to that "computer", your brain; Via tiny electric/chemical impulses through those nerves and processes the info so you know how to respond/react.

    BS's "seat belt mechanism that tightens, somewhat simulating G forces a real driver would experience." and "if they utilize the seatbelt tensioner and for the helmet it would come closer to proper G force but still...not the real thing." are valiant attempts but don't mention that the forces are not the belts or helmet pressing against you....it is not even the feeling of you pressing aginst them. It is, as stated above, the internal feel of your cells mass pressing against your nerves. yes the belts and helmet and seat are restraining you, but the sense of the "gravities" are the aforementioned sensations of pressure of your own mass ahainst the nerve endings.

    *Thus, for a simple example......very, very basic for the layman.....'forgive the simplification......

    You're taking a long sweeper...not a flat-out one, but a mid to high speed one nonetheless. Your setup has a tad of oversteer built in for better slower corner rotation. You're modulating the throttle for the variations in grip due to the old, worn tarmac....cracks, dips and tiny bumps, slight surface erosion, concrete patches and the like....so the rear doesn't let go.
    If and when you are in tune with your "computer", you're responding/reacting to those dynamics, not just with sight to anticipate the change in grip, but, as traveling thru each dynamic, you are using the instantaneous change in that "feeling" of the Gs, while as the car is going the same direction you want, the rear of the car is not following the exact same track as previously. You feel that minute change in slip angle long before you can see it. When you can see it in (in real life, not game/sim), it's too late. 'Not necessarily an off, but a correction required that slows you; rather than sensing it sooner and compensating to avoid losing too much grip hence speed.
    Yes, you can feel the tires letting go. But the change in forces prior to that are key to going fast.
    I do believe that "super" awareness of those forces is what separates the (doubly) very, very best from even the (singly) very best. (off the top o' me head: Fangio, Clark, Stewart, (not G villeneuve), Senna, Schumacher, (maybe Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, LeClerc...'not sure..).......You know the type I mean, if I left anyone out......

    Sorry, 'get carried away at times. I digress. :)


     
  10. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

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    #35 Bas, Jun 17, 2020
    To clarify, I think motion is overrated based on what it costs and where the technology is at. With motion rigs you get that bit more detail feeling when a car goes light for example, but with a direct drive (which presumably one would have at this point when spending 10K on motion bits), you get the brunt of detail already with that. I don't think motion will make a driver much faster, if anything...and whilst it adds some realism, it's still far away from delivering what a race driver truly feels.
     
  11. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #36 lorenzobandini, Jun 17, 2020
    Absolutely. No need to clarify, I understood. :)

    I just got carried away by the thoughts of those that feel that sims, let alone games, are really sport. That's why they're called "games" and "sims". At best they are just simulations of sport.
    In my teens I raced slot cars "professionally" (no cash; anything I wanted/needed to build and compete In the '60s it was BIG. I was pretty good, and being of little means, it enabled my participation at a much higher level, for which I was thankful.), sponsored by a slot car motor and parts distributor; and never once have I had an inkling of a thought that it was/is a sport....even as much closer to sport than videos on a screen(s) it was/is. I think this later generation of.....ahem....."kids"(?) that didn't go out and play and do things other than computer games and such really have missed out on much (sort of not their own fault, I guess...the times...) and have a much different perspective. I posted before on some board that I wonder when we're going to be simply brains in a "jar" not so many generations out in the future.......scary and sad..

    Anywho, I enjoyed the virtual "Le Mans" show more than any of the others that have been on. Especially the Jacky/Derek and Henri interviews that I caught by chance Saturday morn'....... :)
     
  12. BartonWorkman

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    #37 BartonWorkman, Jun 17, 2020
    It's not inconceivable that some of the big name drivers are doing these virtual races in order to,
    you know, keep their names out there.

    It's notable who's names are absent such as Hamilton, Bottas, Vettel (although I think he did do one
    of the events) and Kristensen to name a few. I asked Tom K why we're not seeing him in the virtual
    races his reply was, "I am to the real thing with consequences, speed and sound, I guess."

    On the other hand, our friend Emanuele Pirro is doing the Grand Prix Masters events and having a
    lot of fun with it. EP is doing the events from his home in Rome and using a very standard setup
    which includes what he calls a "fishing chair", basically a fold up beach chair. Despite this, EP
    has emerged as one of the guys to beat every weekend.

    BHW
     
  13. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #38 lorenzobandini, Jun 17, 2020
  14. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    #39 rob lay, Jun 17, 2020
    I think Bas said it best, even the top pros who expect the top reality and have the money to afford it, aren't that crazy about motion.

    1) maybe it takes years of actual car racing like I have, but I certainly "feel" the G's of the car in a good way.

    2) motion on sims can be bad motion, how about you go off and it shakes your brain loose? funny story a local dealer had a $175k sim that if anyone would go off would shake so much it would break pieces that cost $5-10k to fix. obviously not setup right, but those are the headaches you deal with in multiple ways.

    3) so yes adding motion adds something, but is it good? what if the motion isn't completely accurate or realistic? what does it mean to add a few motions, but you are still lacking some even with a $100k rig.

    4) sims get to be more expensive and complex than an actual car, they are already a pain in the ass with software updates every week plus keeping batteries charged plus even the pieces on non-movement rigs break. my sim is down right now for a simple potentiometer on the brake pedal.

    5) I fundamentally don't believe in games and sims as an extensive hobby. I think they can be a little fun here and there, more importantly learn tracks and keep hand & eye coordination for REAL driving and racing. Anything else is just make believe and pretending.
     
  15. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #40 lorenzobandini, Jun 17, 2020
    Also, the same wavelength. ;)

    No, I don't see the sense in the simulation of the feel of real racing because it isn't.....it too is simulation.
    (3) "what does it mean to add a few motions, but you are still lacking some even with a $100k rig." The all important Gs......
    (4) Agreed. I say better to spend the money on some track days at least.....go-karts, 'Barber school, rent-a-seat.........hands on something real for Pete's sake.

    Do it. Feel it. Don't just play it on a screen........ :)
     
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  16. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    #41 Isobel, Jun 17, 2020
    That’s good. Does he give himself a 5 second penalty whenever he goes on the grass?
    Hope he stays there forever......;)
     
  17. spicedriver

    spicedriver F1 Rookie

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    #42 spicedriver, Jun 17, 2020
    They should race the cars by remote like drone racing.

     
  18. Isobel

    Isobel F1 World Champ

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    #43 Isobel, Jun 18, 2020
    Here’s Pirro ruining the race for every single fan attending.

    In the middle of a great battle for first place, it’s time to interject the opinion of someone who never saw the lead in an F1 car himself.

    A totally self possessed imbecile as Chief Steward. Even Hamilton’s countryman Brundle said they shouldn’t interfere.
    Hope Toto’s cheque cleared. Pirro’s perfect for E-sports cartoons or Uber rides and not much else.
     
  19. BartonWorkman

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    #44 BartonWorkman, Jun 20, 2020
    A picture says 1000 words, so they say...

    Here is our boy Leclerc "driving" 300KMPH down the Mulsanne Straight during the
    Virtual Le Mans 24 Hours while enjoying a yogurt snack at the same time.

    The video is on Instagram.

    Gentlemen, I yield the floor.

    BHW


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  20. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie

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    #45 lorenzobandini, Jun 20, 2020
    Why, thank you Barton.....'appreciate it.....

    Now, 'though a simple feat on the three 1 mile straights and chicanes.......
    ........oh how, back in the day, Charles could have scarfed down more of it at 350ish, on the one, near 4 mile, Mulsanne...... Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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