Anyone Else Thinking About Getting the New 2021 MC20???

You contradict yourself in your post, I think you can see that for yourself. Of course there is competition within the FCA Group. However, this is more likely to happen in the Alfa area with regard to Maserati.

It is a fact that Maserati still profits more from Ferrari than that the two brands compete with each other. So it is still a value-enhancing argument for a Maserati owner to be able to say "the engine is from Ferrari". This will now be more accurate again with the 3.0 liter tt V6 from the MC20, this engine is a direct derivative of the 3.8 liter TT engine from Ferrari (F154 family), what the "old" 3.0 liter tt V6 was not in the Ghibli and Levante. Although produced at Ferrari, no Ferrari uses any component from this "pure Maserati" engine.

I do not think that Macchionne has made such a huge mistake to revive the brand Alfa Romeo. This brand has an even bigger market potential than Maserati. So it is obvious that from the Group's point of view it is vital for survival to restore this brand to its former strength. It is certainly regrettable that Maserati had to suffer as a result. But only a strong Alfa brand can ensure the survival of Maserati. It would never work the other way around.

And yes, the great weakness of the Italians is their ability to define long-term strategies and stick to them. They completely lost this ability with the fall of the Roman Empire. Since then, it has been a nation full of opportunists...

 

not the same tub, it is much larger, but was derived from it.

 

I wonder how many Maserati's you have all owned. Maserati does build some nice looking cars, yes the SUV is probably better looking than a Cayenne but no where near as capable, the Ghibli is a joke and the Q is getting old, the design no longer stands out. I can say that unless this new car is a better balance of chassis, and engine (which was the GT biggest fault), it will sell to the oh it looks so pretty crowd. I have owned four Maserati's (the last being a GT MC version), and if they do manage to build a car that is truly a drivers car, I may be interested.

 

I love the looks of the Maseratis, but neither the Ghibli nor the Levante impressed me as drivers when I had them as loaners -- the Ghibli for 2 months recently.

However, the Alfa Giulia sedan impressed me so much on a test drive that I just leased a 2020 Q4 Sport Ti ... it is a heck of a car for the money, very much Italian in character and significantly less expensive than the Maserati. I would have loved the V6 but needed all wheel drive.

That being said, I am looking forward to checking out the MC20.

 

The F154 family of Ferrari engines---all Ferrari engines actually---are THANKFULLY part of Maserati's past, NOT future!
The F154 family are currently used in the following out-going Maserati models:

Maserati
Eng. code
F154 AM[11] 3,797 cc (232 cu in)
86.5 x 80.8 mm 2013–present Maserati Quattroporte GTS 530 PS (390 kW; 523 hp) at 6800 rpm[2] 650 N⋅m (479 lbf⋅ft) from 2000 to 4000 rpm
710 N⋅m (524 lbf⋅ft) on overboost between 2250 and 3500 rpm[2]

2018–present Maserati Levante GTS (US spec) 558 PS (410 kW; 550 hp) at 6250 rpm 730 N⋅m (538 lbf⋅ft) between 2250 and 5000 rpm

2018–present Maserati Levante GTS (Euro spec) 530 PS (390 kW; 523 hp) at 6250 rpm 730 N⋅m (538 lbf⋅ft) between 2250 and 5000 rpm
F154 AQ[citation needed] 2018–present Maserati Levante Trofeo (US spec) 598 PS (440 kW; 590 hp) at 6250 rpm 730 N⋅m (538 lbf⋅ft) between 2250 and 5000 rpm[12]

2018–present Maserati Levante Trofeo (Euro spec) 580 PS (427 kW; 572 hp) at 6750 rpm 730 N⋅m (538 lbf⋅ft) between 2250 and 5000 rpm

 

Don't get me wrong as I love both Ferrari and Maserati, but the Maserati snobbery is funny. The Ferrari based motors are a blessing compared to the Detomaso or Citroen era motors(other than the old V8's). If anything Maserati is a lot more common now due to the Ferrari engineering. You have to go back many years to the 1950's up to maybe 1965 when the Maserati of old racing team was still going. Really the "old Maserati " was gone by the late 1960's That Bora Group 4 effort was never going to get anywhere against the , you guessed it.. Ferrari Daytona Competition.

 

It was De Tomaso who blocked the Bora GR4 to favour his Pantera. Read my articles and chapter.
No one, not even he, could have predicted that not long after that the October 6 1973 energy crisis that changed the world would eventually allow him to grab the Trident.

It has been established that the Bora GR4 was a major concern for Maranello and De Tomaso hence their lobbying against it.

 

All right regarding the 3.8 tt V8, but in my post I talked about the current 3.0tt V6 from the Levante and Ghibli.
And why "THANKFULLY part of Maserati's past"? What's wrong with the F154 engine?

 

With all due respect the Bora Group 4 would never have been sorted enough to be an issue with or without the energy crises or lobbying . It did although have potential.

 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing!
My problem is with the humiliation imposed on Maserati 'borrowing' engines from other manufacturers, regardless of the source.
Similar to the irony of the largest Maserati site on the web being hosted on Ferrarichat!

And please don't remind me of the disgrace of the De Tomaso years!
Within FCA or without Maserati will survive!

My Bora and my Khamsin tell me so every day.

Regards.

 

I am not snobbish and I live well with my current choice of Maserati cars, of which one has the 114 3.0L V6 from the Citroen era, and the other has the 585 3.2L V8 biturbo that traces back to the deTomaso era

 

... and I really look forward to the presentation of the new Maserati sports car with a Maserati engine.

 

Nice that you have a crystal ball.

The Bora Gr4 was faster in open test days at Monza in period when the Daytonas were running out of brakes, the Bora had zero fade thanks to the LHM brakes. I interviewed my late friend Francois Migault who was the main driver for Thepenier, Giulio Alfieri (back in 1995), Cleto Grandi, Giancarlo Martinelli, Ermanno Cozza, Guy Malleret (at his house twice, he was in the day head of Maserati for Citroen President Pierre Bercot) Jose Rosinski (leading french journalist and competent racer, the Paul Frere of France) and...Paul Frere himself (Le Mans 1960 winner, the world's leading journalist who wrote for publications on three continents).

All of them confirmed that the Bora Gr4 was very quick and was really worrying the opposition hence de Tomaso doing everything to block it and Ferrari not helping either.

I drove chassis 3000 in 1995 for a Sports car International article in July 1995 a the Trappes circuit outside of Paris (cf SCI issue June July 1996) and chassis 3001 for Classic & Sports Car June 22, 2009 at paul Ricard with Francois Migault having come specially for the occasion from his home near Le Mans (cf Classic & Sports car December 2009 issue). No other journalist ever drove them.
cf a much larger chapter in my book http://www.eaurougepublishing.com/publications/detail/maserati-the-citroen-years (160000 words of research and interviews).
I raced semi professionally in the Uk in the late 80's and have tried many cars on track for magazines from 375MM, the Breadvan, 250LM, 512BBLM, 512M etc and can confirm it was just superbly planted, the modified engine was giving plenty of power without being stressed and the LHM brakes are super efficient and fade proof.

Jean Guikas a passionate dealer who has owned both and is a very, very fast driver had owned Daytona Group 4's and Pantera Group 4's has expressed many times to me how the Bora was just a step above its competitors...before it got blocked, was not allowed to race when in fact other cars got homologation that was denied the Bora but not these other cars. Malleret could have protested but he was not comfortable with the whl racing program so maserati just emitted a press release pointing out the differences in treatment with other manufacturers getting homogation when they shouldn't have.

Guikas won a Ferrari Maserati historic challenge race with chassis 3000 at Vallelunga consummately beating the opposition including a very well driven daytona Gr4.
Migault used to host me at his estate for Le Mans and Le Mans Classic and we spoke many times of the Bora Gr4 potential, like all of the interviewees above he was very clear about its competitiveness.
Decades before that around 1981, 82 when I went to school by bus from Neuilly to Boulogne in the Paris are we would going through St Cloud pass by Thepenier the Maserati France showroom and I would see 3000 every day, first the original gray then red when heir and Thepenier backer Philippe Cornet Epinat converted it for street use. I spoke with Jean Thepenier, a very quiet, reserve person several times and he just stated that they had been blocked.

A lot of work had been done, it wasn't a half baked effort, cf the various body configurations. So please have some respect and don't dismiss it summarily like that.

 

Are you not yet with Maserati life? I think with you one could have many interesting conversations there.

I own a Maserati and a Ferrari. Both are great cars, so I'm having a little trouble with your absolute perspective. Maserati itself has done a lot of things wrong, they have largely blamed themselves for their disaster. On the other hand Ferrari has used many Fiat parts for a long time. Somehow the world is just not perfect.

 

I can not agree more here! I drove #3000 when owned in Belgium on the Spa-Francochamps circuit. Yes, it was heavy but the mid-engine layout helped a lot in positioning the car correctly in turns while the Daytona-Comp. were rolling like a tanker...
And down to Eau Rouge and up were rather special in the car that was soo stable there! Loved it.

The Bora GrIV was a very promising car as were the much advanced Chubasco concept - both worried Ferrari a lot!

 

Maserati from what it was should have been competing against Ferrari. Never happened! Instead FCA let make Maserati breath new "air" into Alfa, ignoring its own future. Thats a fact. Period! The current CEO of Maserati clearly stated that THIS had been a major mistake!

Yes, you are right -"Engine made by Ferrari" was always a big argument in the marketing and selling activities of Maserati. But did Ferrari also benefit from Maserati? Yes, I think so: a customer of mine bought a new 575 Maranello and its engine blew after only 5,000 km and I also know other troubles with Ferrari engines. Maserati cars made more milage in 2 or 3 years than any Ferrari in its entire live. So Ferrari had to make the engines for Maserati strong and reliable with a benefit in technology and development for their own cars. Now a F12-812-488 engine is bullet-proof.

Then lets have a look to the days of the MC12. Press-blahblah was always "based on the Enzo". YEs, but only the monacoque. Suspension, electrics, mapping, gearbox were different from those components in the Enzo, not to mention the wonderful engine of the MC12 that was gear-driven (!!) rather than the chain driven motor from the Ferrari.
And what happened then? No journalist on this planet was allowed to do a test of both cars side-by-side. A German magazine tried and contated me to get an MC12. Just a couple of days before the test, I was told by Ferrari-Germany that should this test became reality the magazine will never get a new Ferrari for testing...

Yes, Alfa has a bigger market potential because there are more of them than of Maseratis. But Maserati and Alfa are money-wise on a different level. So the marketing potential is different. On this aspect Macchionne clearly made a mistake!

 

you may want to look into when the Group 4 Bora ran in the European Ferrari/Maserati Historic Challenge Series, the Bora was significantly faster than the com-Daytonas.

 

Thank you for your interesting detailed reply. I have great respect for you and many others on this Maserati forum section and love to read your articles and replies(and books). I do agree with you on the potential of the Bora Group 4 but I am basing my opinion on Maserati not the car. They had a long string of failed under developed race projects that could have been winners if developed properly. Winning a historical race and or having great potential does not translate into a race winner. We all know Ferrari and Porsche had the ACO's ear back then, so the Bora GR4 not being allowed does not surprise . But it would have taken a lot of effort to win Lemans GT class, more than Maserati had available. I would have been happy to see it race as it was a pretty car. It would also have pushed Ferrari into making a better Daytona Competition replacement. The last series 3 Comp Daytona's were finished before the Bora would have even started to race. It would have been a properly developed 365BB that would have had to race against the Bora, not the Daytona. Ofcourse all we ended up with was a half baked 365BB NART wich was rather slow and not a true factory effort. Anyway Maserati of old will never come back. We can get some very nice limited series cars from Maserati now, but the old limited production Maserati of old will never happen as times have changed and the days of over regulation and government meddling are here to stay. Let's just be glad we are getting this MC20!! It will most likely be a money loosing gift to the enthusiast. But it will also be a great advertising tool .If they were smart they would build on this and try to use the MC20 concept to take Porsche market share, not Ferrari.(I.E. keep the price more conservative)

 

More than likely the buyer of the MC 20 won’t be purchasing it instead of, it will be in addition too!

 

Thank you

 

Assuming that there is a long term commitment to Maserati by Chrysler-Fiat, both in marketing and financially, I think that it could become a brand that commands a place in the market. Unfortunately, money is tight across the entire automobile business now with the transition from carbon to electric, not withstanding the current health problem the economy faces. Hopefully, those of us who have followed the marque and wish it well will be rewarded but the ride is going to be a very rough one and only time will tell.

 

Elliot, time will always tell, no matter what is been discussed.....

 

Walter, you are one hundred percent correct!

 

It seems to me you have a little Ferrari complex. Do you really think Ferrari made the V12 engines more stable because of Maserati? Rarely read such nonsense. And that Ferrari wanted to protect the Enzo, a lighthouse flagship model developed purely for the road (and collections), compared to the MC12, a development based on the Enzo and thought of as a limited homologation model for the FIA GT Championship, is not so reprehensible. Certainly no reason to get upset about Ferrari.

Let's put it this way; Maserati has always done a lot of mistakes, and most of them are their own fault. Of course, the plan within FCA to rebuild the Alfa Romeo brand sustainably has set the Maserati brand additionally under pressure. But it should also be mentioned that Maserati did not reach his planned sales figures starting with the Ghibli by far. It is more than obvious, for example, that the biggest competitor of a Ghibli was and is the Levante. Maserati was intelligent enough to attack the newly launched product line with the Levante SUV before it could establish itself in the market. Very intelligent. They had already failed before Alfa additionally pushed them.

It was the German Harald Wester who, at the beginning of his Maserati career, first had to lift the rather below-average product quality of a Granturismo to a marketable level, including the optimization of the V8 "produced by Ferrari". Or do you really think the first Maserati F136 engines were bullet proofed? That Maserati has taken the effort to raise the Ferrari engine-quality to its own "much higher quality standard"? I am laughing myself to death. Before Wester, Maserati was as always in its slovenly mode. But it was also Wester who failed already in a very early stage to reach the ambitious plan to sell 75'000 units. Now Harald Wester is back again and can correct a few mistakes.

It is very Italian to always want to look for the faults outside. In this respect Maserati is not much better. Maserati needs FCA (or another partner), otherwise the brand will not survive. Anyone who believes otherwise is a dreamer. But Maserati must finally prove that FCA's investment in this brand is not money thrown out the window.

 

there is so much in this statement that is simply not correct, it’s easier to say what is correct. That is that Harald Wester WAS the person that put Maserati on the right path. I sitting down the hall at SpA when Marchionne came in and replaced Wester with Reid Bigland. Yes they did bring Wester back for a short time, but he is no longer running Maserati. It’s Grasso’s baby now. It’s mostly what Americans call “Inside Baseball” or for Europeans remember Machiavelli was Italian and its politics 24/7.