812 VS Rumors | Page 80 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,342
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    George
    The VS is a limited number production car. Like the TDF. As far as I know this has not changed in the last few weeks since my last news from Maranello


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  2. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    The Speciale was the end of na v8, not numbered. The pista not numbered. Both were somehow a limited production run but not that rare as I guess at least 3000 of each were made. The 812 VS imho will be a limited production run ( most likely won’t exceed one year of production) but won’t be numbered ( so production number could well approach 1500 at most) while the aperta version will be the more collectible variant and numbered like they did with the 599 Aperta, 458 SA. That said the VS will probably mark the end of a generation of na v12 Front/mid engine and no doubt that it will and always be a very desirable car especially when future cars become hybrid and quieter and where potentially v12 won’t be produced anymore except maybe for iconas and other super limited series.
     
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  3. ScrappyB

    ScrappyB Formula 3

    Oct 3, 2017
    1,369
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    Agree with you except I do expect the VS to be limited. Production capacity will be shared with the GTS and the sun is setting relatively quickly on the 812 platform due to regulations. They need to squeeze in both the VS and VS Aperta into this schedule. 800ish VS units plus 500ish (?) Apertas is not an insignificant quantity as it relates to V12 production output.

    Also, how many would they be able to sell at their desired price if the car wasn’t limited? Perhaps not that many more?
     
  4. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
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    They should be able to aim for 1000/1200 ish VS coupe and 500 Apertas. The GTS isn’t going to be produced for much longer. Price-wise imo for the VS coupe assuming it is not numbered I would guess 10%/15% more than the GTS so definitely less expensive than the SF90 imo
     
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  5. SirPouyan

    SirPouyan Karting
    BANNED

    Oct 18, 2017
    180
    Full Name:
    SirPouyan
    Agreed they can't possibly have a normal unveiling with a packed house. Maybe if their IT department has improved since the unveiling of their lame app, they could do a nice Zoom presentation.

    On your second point, I just don't see it. The last V-12 of their flagship product is screaming for a limited edition. There are probably lots of buyers in the pool right now who would buy the car sight practically unseen. Especially if priced in same ratio of TdF base price versus F-12 base. SpA won't set up test drives for qualified buyers of a VS, unless their entire business model has changed since the introduction of both the TdF and the Pista.

    Also, if SF-90 killed the demand for a V12 as you say, that is even more of an argument for making the last NA V-12 a collectible or quasi-collectible. If I were in charge of SpA, my goal would not be to sell the maximum number of V-12 VS's, but rather to make the last V-12 memorable and rare.

    Agreed that Pista is not a numbered edition, but it is pretty limited. New Pistas coupe allocations were limited to Lusso owners in the US. Pista Spiders were very hard to get for anyone outside of "Ferrari VIP 1-10%" profile.

    I think if you want a new 812 VS, the best way to know whether you will get one or not is by looking at SpA's and your dealer's selection process for TdF and Pista allocations. History will probably repeat itself in this case.
     
  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    The factory has established it can produce about 2,200 V12 engines per year, the 812GTS is not selling well, in USA many dealers dropped any prerequisite to order and still had difficulty. I presume the expected SF90 Spider is having an impact. 812SF orders are very low. Monza production is continuing but should complete in the next 9 months.

    My observation is the factory has a surplus of V12 production capability. The factory has no future V12 model announced to replace the 812 family and it is speculated if one appears it will use a new engine block.

    The factory did not understand how much of an impact the SF90 would have on the 812 series.

    This is not 2015, the factory was not yet a stand-alone public company (it did so just after the tdF reveal).

    The factory is now beholden to the stock market, if the 812VS were to be numbered I would suspect the factory would want to set its base price above the tdF, probably 30% above but that looks impossible and also sell out the series. There is simply too much price competition with the SF90 since it has replaced the 812/V12 as the top regular production series car.

    Therefore it would seem prudent to produce without limit, using end-of-series exclusion to keep production going into 2022 (as the Pista did to exempt itself from MY2020 EU regulations ---this is one reason for the F8 to exist, the other being to extend the 488 lifespan until big changes in 2022)

    My concern is the 812VS will be impacted by EU noise regulations and will feature a hot tube (providing cabin engine sounds) and due to GPFs and noise regulations will depend more on its "new" look then any meaningful increase in power to attract buyers.

    I am looking forward to be wrong on all accounts!
     
  7. abdulla.alhajri

    abdulla.alhajri Karting

    Jul 16, 2015
    124
    I dont see the 812VS being a numbered car in any way, the future for Ferrari is not paved with roses. It is the Ferrari magical v12 symphony that people are after, why would Ferrari limit the production to a NA v12 when they know for sure in the near future it will only be limited to icona and hypercars.

    The dynamic shift in market towards cleaner cars means it has its last chance to make the best of what it has. When all cars end up going EV it is the fastest and the most technological advanced would prival ( most likely German cars )


    Its now or never for Ferrari they must make use of a dieing formula before everything shifts to another unknown dimension.

    Mclaren, Lamborghini and now Aston martin have massacred Ferrari when it comes to design and performance. Ferrari has its engine to show case for at the moment might as well make use of it.
     
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  8. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    They are going to have to come up with a serious formula to justify the VS/GTO name and the increase in price. If it’s just a mid cycle refresh of the 812 SF produced over almost 2 years in a fairly large number, non-limited, with GPF and a hot tub it won’t convince buyers
    I hope this isn’t it i’d like to think it will be more than that
     
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  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Because the GTO name was only recently used (599) and "Superfast" is already a historical Ferrari name, I suspect a new name, like PIsta, will be used, perhaps Ultimo (Italian meaning: last, final, ultimate)

    I am hoping for 9500rev limit (that is quite a lot for a GDI engine, probably would require even higher pressure fuel pumps) and at least 830PS, with GPF-free option for non-EU deliveries...
     
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  10. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    Are you sure ?:D
     
  11. mycatisholdingmehostage

    Jan 19, 2018
    117
    Full Name:
    Alex
    I doubt this is the last NA V12 from Ferrari. They’ve said themselves that the V12 will continue on for quite some time.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    If "na V12" indicates unassisted NA V12, seems quite likely. The current block is close to being at its maximum reliability for a production car. Where to next? Larger block? Perhaps, though seems counter intuitive, but, with the SF90 and its relatively low CO2 output of 154g/km, that can help balance out the "fleet average" (to reduce EU penalties) so maybe Ferrari is not so concerned? And, with the "LB" to follow, its presumed even lower CO2 measurements will give Ferrari even more "breathing room" for its averaging...

    However, if 'na V12' includes 'forced inducation' (such as Turbo) then what is the meaning of NA V12...

    I think Naturally Aspirated means no forced induction or hybrid assist, simply the engine only on its own merits...
     
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  13. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    I’m actually not sure at all to be honest some people seem to think the next gen will be hybrid and a new platform
    Which is why for the vs to be really worth the price tag and considering it may have gpf, hot tube and some other silencing nonsense it needs to be a serious proposition in somehow a limited number otherwise it will be nothing more than a mid cycle refresh of the 812/ an attempt to revive demand . Finally I hope it will remain pure na otherwise for me the last pure v12 will be the pre gpf 812. Looking forward t see what technology/engine they will show case and the expected production numbers
     
  14. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
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    Can you provide that reference? Latest I can find is they will "fight" for it to continue with no guarantees, although it is mentioned that the FUV will possibly have a V12 option, but that is hardly comparable to a GT such as the 812...and FUV will likely have a completely different V12 engine, less NA power, with hybrid assist...

    https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ferrari/30374/new-2021-ferrari-purosangue-suv-will-use-an-adapted-platform-from-the-roma-gt

    Ferrari’s Chief Marketing Officer, Enrico Galliera, told Auto Express: “To be honest, electrifying a V12 means creating – very probably – a heavy and big car. So electrification ideally should be coupled with smaller engines. The philosophy is to try to be ready with different technologies in order to use them with the necessary evolution,” he added. “That’s why we have a wide range of engines: V12, V8 and, in the future, the V6.”
     
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  15. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    I agree with your view and definition of na v12. That said I sometime wonder what tge really value of that really is. If the next gen is a similar engine plus hybrid will that be seen as not being a na v12 engine? Look at LaFerrari a na v12 hybrid and one of the most desirable and collectible cars, surely not less than its predecessor the enzo the last na v12 halo car.
     
  16. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    793
    Hockenheim, Germany
    Not going to happen
     
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  17. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    The LaF hybrid was limited to its flywheel, it is a car that needs regular care and its electric drivetrain bits are not ageing well.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147307584/

    I think I will remain that NA is engine only, no power assist from forced induction or electric motors (etc), there is a purity to that, and a great deal less complexity to maintain.
     
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  18. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
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    Hopefully the 812 VS will be NA V12 by your definition
    As far the 812 replacement is concerned i can hardly see how given the regulations and competition it could remain pure NA V12
     
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  19. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Correct, even with the best projections, only 10million EV cars will be produced annually by 2028, far short of the 90m or so currently made each year not to mention the 100s of millions in regular use. And, that 10m per year is dependent on numerous requirements such as sufficient demand (not there at all), raw materials, and battery factories to produce. Highly unlikely all cars made annually will ever be pure EV on any timescale.
     
  20. TWCC

    TWCC Karting

    Apr 27, 2020
    56
    As many pointed out the pricing and model structure is completely confused....you get pretty a much new 812 for the price of a F8....the GTS is too close to the SF90 and so I can't imagine it's going to hold its value....150k premium vs SF for the roof off is very hard to justify....not sure where the 812 VS would sit both from a price point perspective and HP....Pista got a 50 hp pump, so VS would need to get the same at least...30hp bump on a 800 hp car is way too little to make any difference (you ll probably get 20hp putting an exhaust on)...but even at 850 and if 20-30% above GTS you are at SF90 price level but still lack 150hp....plus interior of the 812 is now really dated, you don't have 4WD to put the power down etc....lastly the TDFs have come down a lot (and probably will further), so people might consider that one as well...really curious to see how F will navigate that...doesn't look straight forward....i think the most logical thing would be to limit it by numbers, charge 600k and offer it only to serious collectors as the very last n/a V12..there's many that didn't buy the SF90 as it's not limited
     
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  21. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    This is technically incorrect. A LaFerrari has a N/A engine, supplemented by an electric motor.
     
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  22. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
    8,923
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    Olivier
    Absolutely

    Many people confuse "Naturally aspirated" with "Unassisted"

    Naturally aspirated means the intake air is at atmospheric pressure. God only is pushing it into the engine (just kidding)

    When a compressor wheel increases the air pressure , the engine becomes "Charged" - Super- or turbo- , according to what is moving the compressor wheel. A belt (Super) or a turbine (Turbo)
     
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  23. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Just like adding a turbo causes the car (except Porsche Taycan) to be known as a "Turbo"

    There is a word for that...NA+battery/electric assist = Hybrid

    LaF is a Hybrid

    I guess the SF90 and LB are Turbo Hybrids.

    Leaving N.A to describe a car that is simply engine only
     
  24. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
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    Olivier
    Did you read my post ?

    N/A only refers to the pressure of the intake air. Nothing else.

    The fact that there is an electric assistance has nothing to do with the intake air pressure

    Laferrari : N/A Hybrid.

    P1 : Turbocharged Hybrid.
     
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  25. RamsHmb

    RamsHmb Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 22, 2017
    1,031
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    James
    I agree with the summary but the sf90 and 812 are completely different beasts....imho. I own an SF and have a GTS being delivered in the next couple of weeks...I passed on the sf90 because I am not interested in a hybrid v8....I want a NA V12. I am sure there are a number of folks who will own both but they check very different boxes. If I am offered an 812 VS I will be all over it.
     
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