The Ferarri Dino series of engines, not just V6 but V8 and V12 too?

I don't think the piece is claiming that the 65deg V12s are Dino based just that the idea of the 65deg V is an inheritance of Dino's work.

 

I certainly am. Very surprised. I am also surprised at the lack of outcry, protests and comments on this forum regarding the statements made in the Wikipedia piece. Before this thread disappears out of sight I thought I should throw the full weight and might of my two cents worth at it!

The Wikipedia piece makes so many sweeping and far-fetched Dino connections that is factually incorrect, in my opinion. Here is a list of what I consider errors on that page. Feel free to correct me if you have information to the contrary.

1. The Dino V6 was a 65 degree design from its inception.
The Wikipedia section on the 60 and 65 degrees is incorrect. Vittorio Jano designed his V6 engine with a 65 degree angle from the very beginning. It made its debut in 1957 as a 1.5 liter Formula 2 engine in the Dino 156. It was an all out race-bred design with four chain-driven camshafts, dry sump lubrication and magneto ignition. It proved to be powerful, reliable and successful right from the start. It was this brilliant design that was the heart of the Dino racing cars, appearing in many variations and displacements during its long and storied life.
The 60 degree V6:
A 60 degree V6 did appear later, in 1958/1959 but it was a completely different engine. It was a lower powered, less expensive two-cam design intended for Sports Racing/GT and customer cars. It was essentially half of the Colombo V12 engine, so it had little or no relations to Jano’s V6.

2. The Dino V6 was a unique and wonderful design, but not for the reasons given by Wikipedia!
Neither the 65 degree angle nor the short stroke over-square design is what sets this engine apart. The idea of deviating a few degrees from the ideal cylinder bank angle for practical reasons has been done by other engine designers before and after the Dino. In fact, one of the variations of this same engine had the cylinder banks at 120 degrees (the 1961 & 1963 Formula 1 versions developed by Carlo Chiti). The short stroke over-square concept was the rule rather than the exception in race engine design at the time. No, the uniqueness was to be found in the way Jano implemented the design: The 65 degree angle was indeed chosen to improve breathing on the intake side. To compensate for this, Jano offset the crank pins at 55 and 185 instead of the expected 60 and 180 degrees. That way he accomplished an even-firing engine with exactly 120 degrees between firing pulses. The other really peculiar aspects of the design has to do with the firing order: Jano conceived the engine as three V-twins coupled together on a common crankshaft. A V6 is inherently unbalanced and in those days there were no computer simulations to help you create counterweights for minimum vibrations. Designers in those days had to build on what they knew worked, and V-twins had been around for along time… The Dino V6 fired first its front V-twin, then the middle V-twin and last the rear V-twin.
Most remarkably, when the production version of the Dino 206/246 engine was later developed by Franco Rocchi, all these unique concepts were carried over, the race-bred short-stroke four-cam design, the 65 degree angle, even the crankshaft arrangement and firing order! It was for all practical purposes a ‘civilianized’ version of Jano’s V6.

Footnote on the Dino V6: Is it any wonder that we love these engines? Not only the direct racing heritage, but every time we fire up our engines, we are making a connection back in history to the thinking of Vittorio Jano as we can hear and feel his three V-twins seemingly making a line dance behind our backs!


And now, the controversial point. Opinions are entirely my own and not those of the…, etc, etc.
3. The Dino series of engines ended in 1974.
The 308 V-8, which succeeded the Dino V6 in 1975, was not really a Dino engine. Although that engine first appeared in a car branded as a Dino (the 308 GT4), it was NOT a Dino engine. Being a 90 degree V-8 with belt driven camshafts, it had almost nothing in common with the Dino V-6 engine described above. It was a completely new design from the ground up, and the first in a new line of Ferrari engines, which continued all the way through the 360.
No, the Dino series of engines ended in 1974, in my opinion. The last hurrah was the (rather successful) application in the Lancia Stratos.
It all came to an end with the introduction of the Dino308GT4.
Pity ther poor 308GT4. Labeled as a Dino but in reality an early Ferrari 308, it has been shunned by both the Dino camp and the 308 camp. (I actually like that car. One day, perhaps this undervalued and under-appreciated model will get the respect it deserves). The car itself may have been derived from the Dino, but the engine was not.

Once you fall into the trap of calling the 308 engine a Dino engine, then every modern Ferrari engine becomes a Dino engine. To call the F40 engine ‘a Dino-based engine’ - as Wikipedia does- is absurd. To call the Ferrari 456 engine ‘a V-12 variant of the Dino V-6 engine’ - as Wikipedia also does (presumably because of its 65 degree cylinder bank angle) - is even more absurd.

The V8 connection to the Dino can perhaps be argued (although I say no!).

The V12 connection to the Dino? Absolutely none!


The Wikipedia page is misleading and full of errors. We should ask to have it revised.

 

Dinolasse: Excellent post. I don't think the bloodline ending in 74 is controversial at all. To me, it's pretty clear. The V-8, as good as it was, was simply a marketing tool to be branded a "Dino" at first (to protect the Ferrari brand more than improve the "Dino" brand).

There is no engine on earth that sounds like a Dino V6. That includes Fiat Dino's. Having had a 246 Dino gt for nearly twenty years, I would put it in as one of the all time great engine designs.

It's just too bad that many Ferrari owners of the late 70's and 80's did not have the same appreciation as we do today of the little V-6. It still has a bit of the stigma from the rejection of Ferrari owners of that time. It was and is-- an outstanding piece of engineering and history.

 

Wikipedia is crowd sourced - meaning that everything in it is written by volunteers. Anyone can write or update articles in it. If you see something that is incorrect, sign on and fix it.

While this open process leads to some abuse, there are editors who watch the playground.

For the most part, the information in Wikipedia is surprisingly accurate. But don't mistake it for a proper source when doing research.

 

Thanks, bdelp. Yes, it was sad to hear the Dino belittled in the 70’s and 80’. It was especially hurtful coming from Ferrari owners, since they should have known better. The history, the pedigree and the evidence of a brilliant design have been out there all the time, for anybody who cared to look into it. I am glad attitudes are finally changing, though.

And I certainly agree with you on the sound of the engine: It is totally unique, there is nothing else like it. Under full throttle acceleration, the Dino engine takes on a raw visceral note that stirs the soul! It lets you know that this is no ordinary souped-up passenger car engine, this one is a purebred.
The Dino may have been ‘The Little Ferrari”, but its bloodlines are second to none!

 

Thanks for the info. I was aware that Wikipedia somehow was open to inputs from the public, but I have never heard the expression crowdsourced (it does not sound very confidence inspiring!), and I did not know that just anybody can go in and attempt to edit a page. I also felt it would be a little pretentious of me to do so. I am certainly no authority on Ferrari engine history – or anything else for that matter. But if nobody else feels the calling, I will take your advice, register and log in with Wikipedia and see what I can do.

 

Lars, You and I have discussed the lack of respect shown to Dinos in the past (and, in some cases, to this day), and I am sure that you feel as vindicated as I that the Dino has finally achieved its proper status in the Ferrari pantheon. As for the exquisite sound of a howling Dino "on the cam," you have captured it perfectly! Fred

 

In connection with the exhibition "V65°" that ran at the Galleria Ferrari di Maranello from March through May, 2001, Ferrari produced a publication, “V65° - L’efficacia di un’idea” (Catalog N. 1686/01) that traces the history and development of Ferrari's V65° family of engines. Ferrari notes that "Dino is the name of a man, an engine, and a make of car." With respect to engines, Ferrari classifies 65° V6s and 65° V12s as being of the Dino family, AND specfically excludes "all the other 'families' with angles of 60°, 90°, and 120°." Thus, the V8 Dinos are NOT of the Dino ENGINE family.

According to Ferrari, at the time of publication in 2001, the Ferraris in which the Dino family of engines were placed included the following:

V6 race cars:
1956 Dino 156 F2
1958 Ferrari 246 F1
1958 Ferrari 326 MI
1958 Dino 296 S
1959 Ferrari 256 F1
1959 Dino 196 S
1960 Ferrari 246 S
1960 Ferrari 246 P F1
1960 Ferrari 156 F2
1961 Ferrari 156 F1
1961 Ferrari 246 SP
1965 Dino 166 P
1965 Dino 206 SP
1966 Dino 206 S
1966 Ferrari 246 F1-66
1967 Dino 166 F2-67
1968 Dino 166 F2-68
1968 Dino 246 Tasmania
1969 Dino 166 F2-69

V6 road cars:
1968 Dino 206 GT
1970 Dino 246 GT

V12 race cars:
1989 Ferrari F1-89
1990 Ferrari F1-90
1991 Ferrari F1-91
1992 Ferrari F92 A
1993 Ferrari F93 A
1994 Ferrari 412 T1
1994 Ferrari 333 SP

V12 road cars:
1992 Ferrari 456 GT (and variants)
1995 Ferrari F50
1996 Ferrari 550 Maranello
2000 Ferrari 550 Barchetta Pininfarina

Ferrari also explicitly included the Fiat Dinos as part of the Dino engine family.

With respect to Scott's specific questions about the F116B and F133A, the answer is that Ferrari sees them as part of the same FAMILY, but that certainly does not mean that they are BASED upon the Dino "engine" per se . . . .

“V65° - L’efficacia di un’idea” is interesting for at least two other reasons:

First, it states that the advertising material for the Dino V6 road cars that referred to them as "almost a Ferrari" was apparently intended as an inside joke.

Second, this is the only official Ferrari publication that I have seen that specifically features a major reference to the Fiat Dinos, features them as part of the Ferrari "family," and includes photos of the two Fiat Dino models which are displayed on par with all of the other Ferraris and Dinos included in the publication. (I also find it a little odd that although “V65° - L’efficacia di un’idea” mentions the engines in the Lancia Stratos as being part of the Dino engine family, it does not feature them like it does the Fiat Dinos).

Mark

 

This picture is shown on the offical Ferrari site as a 166 F2.. but i see 4 exhausts with each 3 ports.... thats 12 exhaust-ports... also 12 carburators-inlets (6 on both sides)..... who can tell me what kind of test-car this is ... i also have a picture of a test with this car, but to mine opinion it hasn't driven in any race...

Who can help me ??? is this a W12 ferrari engine ???

 

Regarding your question if this is a W12 Ferrari engine, the answer is no. It's a Dino 166 F2 V6 24 valve engine. In 1969 Ferrari tested a Dino 166 F2 engine at Modena with 12 intakes and 12 exhausts, 1 for every valve, but it was not raced.

 

OK thanks for the info.
a V6 24 valves fuel injection.. very innovating for those days, but very complex. No wonder it never raced