When will the SF90 first published test be out?

As an exercise of thought, as initially posed by thecadster, I am a simply speculating as to the demand for the SF90 versus a non-hybrid V12 version of the car.

I think if they do end up making the so called F167 it will be limited to 1 of [insert number <1000 here]. They will all be sold out prior to the initial press release and will instantly be worth millions. Because of this, they will spend the majority of the time in collector garages and you will rarely, if ever see one in the wild. I am hopeful this is not the case and the F167 will be a regular series production model. But I just can’t see a scenario with the F8 (or LB to follow), SF90 and F167 all being regular series production models at the same time.


Based on the information available to date, the SF90 is in fact a regular production model, meaning that it will not be limited in time nor quantity of total production. Essentially, it is supposed to slot into the lineup as the flagship mid-engined sports car series. A sort of “big brother” to the F8 and LB to follow. Whether it is intended to be the spiritual successor to the 812 remains to be seen. As such, I think if they could, they would love to sell as many SF90 as possible. But, unlike the Aventador, which Lamborghini was able to sell 2,000/yr for the past 5 years at the $400-$500k price point, I do not see there being as much demand for this car.

On the other hand, if the SF90 was not a hybrid and simply had the same V12 right out of the 812SF, I believe the demand would significantly outpace that of the Aventador and they would be able to sell as many cars as they like.

In closing, what I’m saying is that I wish the upcoming F167 (if it even exists) would have been slated as the regular production model to replace the 812 with the SF90 as a limited production model intended as a tech tour de force to show the world what Ferrari can do with a TTV8 hybrid. I think most car guys, legitimate enthusiasts and trust fund playboys alike, would tend to agree with my assessment.

Of course, this is all just my speculation based on a question posed by another member. So take it with a grain of salt.

 

Okay, now it get clearer to me what your point is and I definitely see myself reflected in what your assessment of the demand scenarios look like. However I think Ferrari will sell every SF90 they are going to produce. It’s the latest and greatest and offers crazy performance at a very competitive price point.

Regarding F167, indeed the remains whether we are talking about some sort of special series i.e. somewhat limited edition car or we really talking about a series production car. I came up with the F167 project name as several times rumours on a new rear mid V12 have come up.

I agree that three rear mid-engined sports cars seem unlikely speaking from today. But two things should be considered. First the Ferrari we have known so far does not exist anymore. They repeatedly mentioned that they want to be less predictive in future. We also have (depending on how you count) at least three different front mid-engined GT cars. Second is timing. Whatever the F167 will be, it is several years away and is not included in the 15 models until 2022. So when the car will launch the S90 might not even be in production anymore.

 

To me F167 will be the regular 812sf replacement.
Rear mid engine with a new generation V12
Soft hybrid
Why rear mid engine ?
Because more than 900 hp is too much for a front mid engine I guess.
Real hybrid range ( LB and BB ) for the new customers
Soft hybrid with new V12 for the nostalgics
Everyone happy

 

I sincerely hope you are right but that might be too many models for Ferrari.

 

Although I'm still in my twenties call me nostalgic

 

Small size v12 with less weight with mild hybrid
FR with e motor and electric swaybar.

48V

Battery behind seat for weight distribution.

This much I can live with.

4wd hybrid torque monster is no no in my book

MR is not always the right answer for me.



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Has there been a driving review published using a SF90 with the Assetto Fiorano package? I have seen an AF-optioned car on the dealer circuit (the grey one), but have not seen a review where an AF-optioned car is driven.

 

I think a mid-engined V12 version of the SF90, as proposed above, completely misses the point and ignores Ferrari’s history. Lamborghini sell plenty of Aventadors because the seminal car in their history was the Miura- a V12, mid-engined masterpiece. That formed the brand’s image and most petrol heads who were kids in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s probably had the outlandish Countach on their wall at some point. That is not Ferrari and never was.

Ferrari were all about front-engined V12s. When they did make a mid 12 it was flat. The main reason for this is what blights all the big Lambos - they struggle with so much weight up high and out back (the V12 sits above the gearbox and is very high, to site the V12 in front of the gearbox would make the car far too long). This is a major handling compromise. I followed a friend in an Aventador Anniversary along the Route Napoleon at high speed and my humble 12C was easily faster. Around the high speed bends I could literally see that big lump tugging at the rear end, trying to haul him into the scenery. That is not what Ferrari see themselves as, they are racers at heart, which means handling as well as power. It’s why when they felt the need to compete against the Countach/Diablo on drama, with the 365, 512 and then Testarossa, they used a 180 degree V12. They only did that for two platforms and then went back to front-engined V12s, which is where their heart is.

The only way Ferrari will do mid V12 is with cars like the LaFerrari, where they use a full and bespoke carbon chassis. The benefit of this is that they can package the V12 more specifically and keep the weight both low and low down, thus avoiding the restrictions of the Aventador, but as we know, it is extremely expensive. Therefore, an SF90 with no hybrid and a V12 engine is simply a non-starter. A replacement LaFerrari is that car and it will again be limited and nowhere near the £500k of the SF90 (and when it arrives, does anyone even believe that today’s Ferrari will charge anywhere near the LaFerrari’s £1.2m for its replacement?)

So where does that leave us? My guess is that we will see another front-engined V12 Icona, probably with a roof (250 GTO remembered?) and also an F40 remembered but with a TTV8. These will use the 812TDF and SF90 as a base, be very limited and cost north of £1m. That is good business for Ferrari - avoid the huge costs of the LaFerrari-type platform but still charge seven figures for an ultra-rare and highly emotional take on the favourites from its fabulous back-catalogue. That would celebrate their history, not drive a coach and horses through it.

You may ask “why keep those volumes so limited?”, after all, 500 x £1m is far less than 5,000 x £500k. The answer to that is very easy. Emissions. Ferrari have to demonstrate major improvements in the CO2 emissions from their total fleet to stay on the right side of their regulators. Once you know the restrictions they are under, and remember that they want to celebrate their history not ignore it, it is not so difficult to work out what the future could include.

 

Very interesting point of view
Very valid I would say.
maybe the new modular platform is there to deal with the costs of a V12 rear engined car ?

 

I think the whole discussion better fits in that thread:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f167-rumors-thread-new-mid-rear-v12.612577/

 

Beg to differ, sir. The flat 12 is a V with an angle of 180 degrees, after all (edit, just read that you said it yourself). Also, the best Ferraris are rear-mid V12s (F50, Enzo, LaFerrari). I was a child-adolescent in the '80s, I had a Ferrari on my wall, not a Lambo. A rear-mid V12 would be a dream for many people. The front-mid engined V12 was IMHO one of the few mistakes that the great Luca made. That said, the Stradale is a great concept as it is.

 

Totally agree.

 

Excellent, excellent points! I think one of LukeyLikey’s points is the flat 12 allows for better packaging. However, even if they could make it work with a 12 cylinder, you are back to the problem of emissions. What’s more, you could argue the mid engine flat 12 cars were really more GT cars in the Ferrari lineup of the time- at least as they progressed- they got larger, more commodious, etc.

The world of supercars is changing. Ferrari had to respond. I think this is quite some response! Lets see how these cars do when they are in client hands.


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As I said in my post, the only way Ferrari can do a mid rear V12 is with a bespoke carbon chassis. These are very carefully designed and you can still see that they are very long in the midships. The cost and engineering is extremely high, that’s why they are the hypers. To use the Stradale’s aluminium chassis and put a V12 in there would either give a hugely long car or necessitate siting the engine over the gearbox like Lambo. They won’t do that, and that’s before we get to the emissions point. Most likely the Ferrari you had on your wall was the Testarossa, which was designed to be outlandish to compete with Lamborghini, although the Magnum 308 was very cool in the 80’s too! The Testarossa platform was not known for its handling, more its power, drama and GT ability.

Luca got few things wrong and I don’t think the front V12 was one of them. I think there are piston heating issues which require over-fueling for cooling in flat engines, especially to get more power out of them. I suspect he knew that the future was the V12, not the flat, with emissions and increased power output being the future. Once you are at V12, you are very close to selecting front engine too, for the reasons stated before. It’s all my theorising but I don’t think it is far away and some things we know as fact - Ferrari did return to V12, Ferrari aren’t lazy, Ferrari tend to make good engineering decisions given the criteria they need to meet.

 

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The rear mid engine architecture (which btw has not necessarily to be pure aluminium but a multi material approach) can host any engine/powertrain configuration.

 

Ferrari’s 6.5 litre lump is not fitting in there. It can only be accommodated with a much longer section behind the driver, and if they do that then so much else changes. They are just not going to do it on the SF90 platform IMO.

 

perhaps they are building a brand new V12 with smaller displacement or reduced size ?

 

Take it for what it is. It’s an official Ferrari document clearly mentioning that it is possible with a V12 (without specifying how displacement figures etc.).

I think it is also misleading to call it the SF90’s platform. It’s a modular red mid-engine platform with in case of the SF90 a particular derivation. Little brother will get its own derivation and so on. Just look at front mid-engine architecture, here we are talking about one platform which should be capable of the design of two seater models like an 812 up to a full blown four seater and even FUV with maybe even four doors.
So modularity is a theme but for each derivation there are some particular requirements for which the modular approach should help to realize them in a more cost efficient way especially through common junctures.

 

I don't think you need to worry too much about Ferrari not being able to fit the V12 into a back of a non-carbon chassis. Just look at the grey 458 LaFerrari mule which has the entire drive train (non-hybrid) in there. They haven't had to move the bulkhead forward - it just fits. I don't think there's any special need for a carbon chassis to accommodate a V12 . Ferrari are generally very clever on drivetrain packaging. The old days of having the gearbox below in mid-engined cars are long gone.

 

Well, of course it would need to be a different-modified chassis. I don't see how length is a problem though, or more of a problem compared to the front-mid cars, I should say. The extra length in the middle of the chassis would be compensated by a more cab forward design and a smaller bonnet. Now, of course all this is theoretical, as it probably won't happen.

For sure, but that doesn't preclude a rear-mid configuration.

 

Perfectly explained, congrats !

 

Looking forward to a final show of the V12 positioned behind the driver

 

Final show?

 

Thanks!

 

It will be great...not so simple. LF body measurements will be a good base