"The three reasons this electric Ferrari 308 is better than the original" | Page 2 | FerrariChat

"The three reasons this electric Ferrari 308 is better than the original"

Discussion in '308/328' started by Dane, Jul 22, 2020.

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  1. TurtleFarmer

    TurtleFarmer Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 13, 2020
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    Full Name:
    Jason S
    Perhaps. Now that we've had ~12 years of real production EVs on the road in enough volume and varied use scenarios, the studies are showing that actual battery life is degrading at 25-50% slower pace than the projections. This is largely b/c the spec'd lifetime of these battery systems is based on realistic worst-case usage, not on the nominal use case. In other words, roughly only 1-2% of vehicles in service actually see the worst-case usage--the vast majority of these vehicles don't see this kind of life cycle. These studies have mostly been on high duty EVs (think buses and industrial) but some have been on Teslas (and Prii).

    The bigger replacement issue of the past years has been electronics and cooling systems of the battery systems, not the batteries themselves--but we'll see what happens in the next 5-10 years.

    Eventually the battery systems will wear out and that will definitely be a big cost. For the classic car owner of the future, this will be an issue and I completely agree that it's going to be interesting to see how vehicles like the Fisker Karma and the Tesla Roadster fare in 20 years time. However, for the general motoring public, the average age of a car on the road is still only 12 years. That age has been steadily increasing over the past few decades (meaning cars were thrown away a lot sooner back in the 60's, 70's and 80's). This is largely because of better build quality (altho economics played a big role as well). I know, that seems surprising, cuz they feel so much cheaper today...but the reality is they're built to last longer. (Except for BMWs...I swear they're built to last 3 years.)

    So it's unlikely that EVs will have a significant impact on the total "cars in the ground" over and above the current retirement of modern vehicles. Also, despite a 50-60% year over year growth in EVs for the past decade, they are still only about 1.5-2% of the total number of cars on the road. In other words, regardless of battery life, we won't see any appreciable change in the average age of cars on the road b/c of battery degradation for a very very long time.

    Also, I'm assuming that on the African human circumstances on raw material production, you're including the Middle East human circumstances cost of oil production for the past 80 years? I suppose we could all drive natural gas vehicles...but I definitely don't wanna convert my 308 to natural gas.
     
  2. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Children slavery is what the problem is for Cobalt mining...
    https://www.ft.com/content/c6909812-9ce4-11e9-9c06-a4640c9feebb

    An "all EV" future is very far into the future if ever.

    Best projections based on 100kWh battery paks (Li-based) have maybe 10m-12m such produced per year in 8-10 years, no where near that now and that's a big if it even happens. With about 90m cars/light trucks manufactured per year, the "scale up" to "all EV" will be several decades if ever.

    And that presumes sufficient raw materials can be mined (all types required) to keep the "giga factories" humming, also doubtful (plenty of Li it seems but several rare earths used in the electric motors as well).

    Not to mention consumer demand which is anemic at best.

    Most of the EV "push" is coming from the "top down" via EU regulations on CO2 and other emissions. Command economies don't scale well outside of dictatorships...
     
    Martin308GTB likes this.
  3. TurtleFarmer

    TurtleFarmer Karting
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    Jan 13, 2020
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    Jason S
    I apologize. My intent wasn't to offend or spark a flame war.

    I'd just like to offer that it's been remarkable to watch the vitriol and divisiveness that has surrounded the EV. IMHO, it's just a diff't way to power vehicles. For some reason, it's been made into a political statement (and of course, both sides claimed the other started it). Like so many other issues, accurate and factual information is used to somehow condemn or exalt a very complex topic using simplistic projections. Nothing is as simple as it's portrayed in the media (Left or Right).

    As an example, the Financial Times reference above is fact checked by Snopes and found lacking: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/child-miners-electric-cars-work/

    Basically, while it's true that majority of Cobalt used in rechargeable batteries today comes from the DRC, the automakers are a mature and large enough industry that they are either in the process or fully committed to transparently changing to ethically sourced material. Unlike the other millions of rechargeable devices on the market, which are unlikely to change sourcing requirements. I'm assuming if someone is opposed to EVs b/c of the current state of material sourcing ethics, they're also opposed to cell phones, laptops, Li-ion Battery automotive battery starters, Li-ion 12V automotive batteries, backup batteries in their car infotainment units, and so on.

    And I completely agree an "all EV" future is a long way away. Not because of some nefarious plot by the Left to take away our liberties and serve their own purposes. It's because it took 125 years of focused development on the ICE to get it to an unprecedented level of technical maturity that services a massively wide range of applications. It simply works really really well. EVs will require similar maturity time, and that progress will be hindered by a very viable alternative being available (ICE)--not to mention the vagaries of the political winds.
     
  4. Gary Sandberg

    Gary Sandberg Formula Junior

    So, while the concept is interesting, my perspective is that the engine and transmission were built by Ferrari. Bodies done by Pinnifarina, Scaglietti, etc. Other peripherals (brakes, switches...from other company parts bins). So, the essential "essence"of the car resides in the drive train. Change that and in my opinion it is no longer a Ferrari.
     
    mwr4440 likes this.
  5. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
    6,685
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    Mike 996
    Frankly, although I would embrace electric cars when the range at a usable speed (at least 75 MPH) is adequate, I do wonder about the real environmental and economic impact to which Martin referred. As he pointed out, that is ignored in the ads/general hype. So many times we rave about something new that is better, more efficient, etc, that turns out to be an "Oops!" moment in history's interesting and very winding road. ;)

    As an example, there may be others here that remember when plastic bags replaced paper bags because they were better for the planet. Yep, all those paper bags were 'killing our trees." Plastic bags to the rescue!! OOPS! :confused:

    But throw-away diapers are still OK. :rolleyes: Go figure...

    I still buy cloth diapers; they are great for Ferrari-polishing! :)
     
  6. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
    389
    The bag material shift happened a few years ago and I see also we get more and more food coming in paper bags, recycled of course. It used to be like this in the old days when we bought food over a desk counter and not walking through malls.

    It is an interesting time we live in and I think we need to do all we can to build new things in an environmentally friendly way, keep old things working as much as possible and reuse whatever we can from things not worth restoring.

    If this means putting an ev in an old Ferrari, it is ok too. It is better than someone buys a sports ev car with all new materials. It would be better to let the co2 content and labour go into building better houses or convert domestic oil heating systems to garbage fuelled city heating or solar cells.

    Well, any manufacturing process has a co2 foot print, but we can try to limit the foot print. Usually new technology will make things more efficient, if forced to by regulations and customer demands.
     
  7. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Mike 996
    OTOH, I think George Carlin was right - we can't "save" the planet and we cannot "destroy the planet."

     
  8. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
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    Paul
    A couple of years ago a friend of mine had a Camry Hybrid that broke down and was diagnosed as needing a new battery. As a favor I bought it from her for $1,000 thinking maybe I could fix it and make a little profit. So I immersed myself into the DIY EV underworld where people recondition, balance and repair these batteries. It was too much effort for a car that frankly, I just wanted to get rid of, so I passed it on as is and sold it for $2,000 to a guy who seemed to know exactly what he was getting into. So I think in the future there will still be a sort of shade tree mechanic culture associated with EV's. Maybe nothing as huge as the 20th century car culture but it will still exist.
     
  9. ChevyDave

    ChevyDave Karting

    Dec 21, 2019
    78
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Full Name:
    Dave W
    Completely agree with those who say performance is not the appropriate yardstick here. I'm just thankful this 308 is still out in the world because worse than converting it to an EV would be it languishing in a garage, a field, or a scrapyard. While it's not my cup of tea, I'm OK with the fact that not everyone shares my vision of the hobby.
     

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