VIN question for 308 about to purchase.... | Page 2 | FerrariChat

VIN question for 308 about to purchase....

Discussion in '308/328' started by Plutonium, Jul 29, 2020.

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  1. Plutonium

    Plutonium Karting

    Jul 29, 2020
    63
    Full Name:
    1980 308 GTSi
    Saw the car today.
    The door and steering column VINs are the same: 33419, all paperwork including Ferrari repairs are 33419. Police have run VINs only 33419 comes up in Canada and nothing reported as stolen for either. 33819 comes up as not being registered in Canada. Ferrari repairs/maintenance go back to 2003 under 33419.
    Interesting situation.

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  2. Plutonium

    Plutonium Karting

    Jul 29, 2020
    63
    Full Name:
    1980 308 GTSi
    Does anybody know if steering column 33819 currently exists?
     
  3. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    That's way above and beyond what I have in my archives...two thoughts:

    - common sense would tell that it is easier to change the steering column and the door tag than the chassis bar in the engine compartment, which VIN doesn't look to have been erased or modified, so you would think that the car is probably 33819; but legally it looks to be 33419.
    The factory would know for sure, looking at the engine number and body/assembly numbers, but then again, should you discover from these research that something fishy has occured at any period of time, the car will become tainted forever.

    - stay away from it...

    Rgds
     
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  4. kcabpilot

    kcabpilot Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2014
    1,527
    California SF bay area
    Full Name:
    Paul
    Well that's definitely an 8. I seriously doubt there's anything sinister here. You may have stumbled upon a real, honest to God, factory sanctioned screw up in which case, maybe there's some value here. It proves that those folks in Maranello were simply mere humans after all. LOL.
     
  5. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    12,282
    South East
    Full Name:
    Jimmie
    OP: To help clarify the previous comments re 419 vs 819 what color is this one's interior ?

    Also the current owner can surely seek clarification from customer services in Italy by additionally quoting the engine number
     
  6. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,696
    The VIN shown as 33819 is not correct. The VIN shown for 33419 is correct. US VINs have a check digit in position 9 of the 17-character VIN that validates the other characters of the VIN.

    The stamped VIN showing 33819 does not look to have been tampered with from the picture and, of course, it makes absolutely no sense to change one VIN on the car and not the others. I have seen Factory mistakes before and I would not be altogether surprised if this was a Factory mistake. However, I absolutely agree with the comments above that this is an issue that you're trying to explain now and would have to be explained to sell the car on in the future so leave this car and look for another. Otherwise it is for the seller to go to Ferrari and try to get them to admit a mistake(!) and give him a document to prove it.
     
  7. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior

    May 1, 2006
    498
    Paris, France
    #32 TripleBlack, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
    Could you tell more about 33819 is not a correct full vin. The formula I have to calculate the 9th show me it should be the same as 33419.
    I would love to learn more about.

    Plutonium, do you have the picture of the door tag ?
    Do you have the engine number ?
    Do you have the first warranty page book ?

    All these numbers will better help research if they are all originals...
     
  8. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,696
    There is a very good Ferrari VIN decoder here http://red-headed.com/vin_check_digit.html and it shows you the calculation (all others I have seen are copied from this site).

    The correct VIN for 33819 if it was a US 308 GTSi would be ZFFAA02A4A0033819.
     
  9. Plutonium

    Plutonium Karting

    Jul 29, 2020
    63
    Full Name:
    1980 308 GTSi
  10. Pero

    Pero Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2011
    820
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter R
    Not sure of the value, if it is correct or not, but looking in Urbans serial number book, 33419 does not exist. 33819 is gtsi 80 red/tan.
    /Peter
     
  11. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior

    May 1, 2006
    498
    Paris, France

    I know this page and I calculated the formula but I do not understand the interpretation of the result. Regardless anyway, everything suggests that the car did leave the factory under number 33419 but it seems incredible that internal quality control allowed such a mistake to pass. I never knew exactly when the chassis number was engraved on the frame, presumably before the body was assembled. then there would have been an error when installing the internal elements ....
    whatever he might have as his research, only the factory could compare the two built sheet to determine if there really are 2 cars 419 and 819 as suggested by Mr. Urban's register.
    thus only the factory could confirm the authenticity of the car under such number because there is no doubt here that it is not a Ferrari.
    So I guess the warranty book show 419 as well because it is related to the door plate for import.
    Very interesting in an historical point of view. I have no opinion if it is a good deal to buy or not at this step of its known history....
    Do you have the engine and assembly numbers by chance ?
     
  12. Plutonium

    Plutonium Karting

    Jul 29, 2020
    63
    Full Name:
    1980 308 GTSi
    Unfortunately I don’t have the engine or assembly numbers
     
  13. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    Not true: 33419 does indeed exist in Matthias Urbans' book IF you look at the supplements to it; the original book published in 2007 has been completed by four supplements since, one of which has 33419 and her full 17 position VIN.

    Rgds
     
  14. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    Exactly my point. It might be a factory mistake (might...), why not, but that would be one in 100.000, and without a factory certificate clearly stating that it is (and nothing else than a "bona fide" factory certificate) the car will be forever suspect.

    Rgds
     
  15. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    Then again, if you bought it for a good price, you could always sell it on Bring-a-Trailer.

    Matt
     
  16. Pero

    Pero Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 22, 2011
    820
    Sweden
    Full Name:
    Peter R
    My edition is quite old so I tried to reserve my statement. So, there is a 33419. Good to know.
    /Peter
     
  17. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior

    May 1, 2006
    498
    Paris, France
    Matthias Urbana’s book is maybe one of the best but it is just a database like many others. It is not because it is not listed that it doesn’t exist. I have hundreds of 308 in that case.
     
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  18. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

    Mar 26, 2011
    11,968
    FRANCE
    #43 nerofer, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
    Yes, but we always have to take into account the fact that Matthias' book is a database, a large one, but "only a database" as said by "Triple Black"...
    (To be clear: Triple Black and I know each other, so you would not be surprised that we agree most of the time; and I also know Matthias rather well...so that is a full disclosure)
    It means that "33419" has been reported to Matthias, perhaps with a picture or two; the picture might be a photography of the steering column, and a description of the car by a person who has seen it, in a gathering or in the street. But that DOES NOT mean that the car was not the same one as discussed here, with "33819" written in the engine compartment...
    What we do indeed know is that Matthias has "33819" as Red / Beige, and "33419" as Red / Black...

    Rgds
     
    Pero likes this.
  19. jtremlett

    jtremlett F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2004
    4,696
    I can tell you where Matthias got the details of 33419 because they were the same place I got them which is from when it was for sale on EBay in 2010. I am 99% sure that is the same car being discussed here.
     
    Pero likes this.
  20. Matthias Urban

    Matthias Urban F1 World Champ

    Mar 5, 2005
    10,022
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Matthias Urban
    33419 is Rosso Chiaro/Nero, (has been in 2010) registered in Canada (Ontario) on plates ANRW 063, 33819 is said to be livered in dark Red met. with Crema interior and was spotted in Georgia, USA in 1985. No advertising, but, there are three supplements to the original book, ranging until 2012, many more details are on F-Register.com and sometimes, I do answer a pm ;)
     
  21. TripleBlack

    TripleBlack Formula Junior

    May 1, 2006
    498
    Paris, France
    If the car has already changed color and upholstery, it deserves a more in-depth study before purchase ....
    But that does not mean that it is a bad car for all that ... It can certainly give a lot of pleasure to its future owner.
     
  22. Plutonium

    Plutonium Karting

    Jul 29, 2020
    63
    Full Name:
    1980 308 GTSi
    The car is currently in Ontario Canada, so I would suspect it is the same vehicle Matthias Urban listed as being Rosso Chiaro/Nero (in 2010). Paperwork said it came into Ontario from Quebec in 1985, was directly imported into Quebec from Ferrari in 1980 (speedo is in km/h). Why it has 33819 on the frame? Still a mystery.
     
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  23. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba

    Wow.....I guess if the paper documentation carries the "4" as legit, go with it.
    A first, for me but of course one never knows.....
     
  24. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,143
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    The accepted history of "8" is known??
     
  25. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
    Full Name:
    The Meister
    Since steering and door match I'd look for repairs to the rear subframe/frame. Baring a straight up mistake (typo) from the factory the leading answer in my mind would be 33419 was repaired with parts from 33819. The 400 numbers off is interesting. The chances of using parts form another (wrecked) car ending in 19 and having the first part of the VIN match as well (given all the markets these car were sold in) is astronomical.

    The more I think about this I'd say factory typo and he only way to protect yourself down the road from a future buyer doing this same investigation and questioning is to get factory document and verification of the mistake.
     
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