Requirement for oil additive on every 599??

Another interesting statistic I was given. Every NEW 599 will exhibit noisy lifters until the car has accumulated many miles. Maybe 3 - 4 or 5 thousand miles or more.
Among the owner group I wonder if other new 599 owners have noticed this also. Again, only happens when car has been sitting for a few days and then started. I have been told that it is just the way it is with this particular Ferrari V12 engine.

 

This is interesting.I have a new 2010 599hgte that has a very noticeable "ticking" sound that lasts for one or two minutes when I start it cold.It then stops and warms up normally thereafter.I have about 600 miles on it at the moment.I am familar with the usual valve noise and this sounds more external.I have had other 12 cylinder ferrari's and this is new.I must admit I haven't really investigated the origin as I planned to drop it off at the dealer shortly for a service check.Any comments would be appreciated.

 

If you have read all the previous posts leading up to this one then you have a lot of information already. IF you do not start your engine for 2 or 3 days, open the hood and listen to the engine after you start it. Especially down in the wheel well area where the sound is maginified somewhat. After 2 or 3 days the "noise" is more pronounced. We believe the reason for that is that the lifters have leaked down more over that time period. What was difficult to figure out was why the lifter noise did not start immediatley after engine start as you would expect with leaking lifters? The theory now is that, due to the different expansion rates occuring within the engine after startup, the lifters start making their noise as the clearances within the engine start to change do to the different expansion rates of the dissimilar metals. With the lifters having lost some of their "cushioning" due to loss of oil in the lifter, the valve tip now makes slight contact producing the tap tap tap sound. As soon as the engine warms up and the expansion of the various metals get to some point, and the lifter fills with oil again the noise goes away. This is why ferrari is suggesting that EVERY 599 that has an oil change should add a certain amount of the additive "Tutela". We are thinking that Ferrari feels that this additive should provide additional cushioning within the lifter and quiet them down. This is a theory at this point as we do not have any "Official" word from Ferrari.
I have been told that it is unlikley that there would be any damage from this lifter anomaly, however it still is disappointing to me that Ferrari has not come up with a "Fix" other than put in some additive oil. Especially where this is ther "Flagship" car.
I have 3 other V12 engines in other brands, one a 2008 model, and none of them have this issue or for that matter any issues. They are great engines. The fact that the 599, which was a very expensive car, has this "issue" is disappointing along with the fact that Ferrari has known about it for awhile and its only response so far is to put in a $35 additive. Perhaps a solution will come but for now the issue still remains.
Don't get me wrong on this, the car is fantastic. I absoultly love it. I just wish Ferrari would come up with a permanet fix and then I would not have to use this "additive" in my engine oil any more.
I also was told that as more miles are put on the car, maybe 3,4,or 5 thousand, the noise goes away. Again the theory is that over time a certain amount of varnish will form on some of the affected parts and this probably provides the extra cusioning that eventually quiets the lifter down. Just a theory as, again I can get no definitve information from Ferrari. Although my dealer has been sympathetic and has done everything they can, they cannot redesign the lifters, if in fact that is what is needed. Now I must say that the noise you are hearing could be something different. I don't mean to imply that your engine is producing the same lifter noise mine is. I found it interesting that the dealer told me that ALL 599's have the lifter noise. I was hoping to hear from other 599 owners to see if they were experiancing the same noise issue I have. Again, yours may be entirely different. Good luck with your new 599, I know you are loving it as I do!!

 

The other funny thing is they recommend the same Tutella product for the 612. The 612 has a carryover, 5748 cc engine with most major internal parts identical to the 575M. It uses exactly the same hydraulic lifter as the 550, 575M, and 575 Superamerica. There were no complaints I am aware of (Brian?) about noisy lifters in the Maranello series, so why suddenly is it a problem in the 612?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

To my knowledge all the hydraulic lifter motors do the same, to different degrees for individual cars. That includes 550,575, 355 and 360,430 and now the 612 and 599. That has been my experience. We have had many that after an oil change require quite a bit of running time before we even feel comfortable giving them back to the owner. You should hear a 355 on startup after a major service when then entire oiling system has been drained.

I suspect owners new to Ferrari have a different level of tolerence and expectation.

They are not and lets all pray they never will be like BMW.

 

Brian- Thanks. Mine has enough mileage (17,000) that I cannot hear them and I had never heard of it as being a Maranello/SA problem before in the 456/550/575 forum.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Thank you so much for the very comprehensive analysis of the engine noise.Altho I am a long time ferrari guy I am new to this board.I am impressed with how helpful the members are with each other and I look forward to spending more time on this site.Also the pictures are reason enough to be here.Thanks again for your help.

 

I've had no clatter in my 599 since new, even when it has sat for awhile. I've heard cars with lots, but in my Maranellos, Superamerica, and 599 I can think of maybe 3-4 times I had any, and that was for 3-4sec. max.
I use Mobil 1 0-30, and car is warmed up but then usually gets run quite hard every time it is out. Never had dealer request adding snake oil.
Brian, do you think the cars that don't get driven/heat cycled hard each use have more issues? Certainly using low weight oil improves cold start oil circulation, and I've never been enamored of Shell vs. Mobil 1, especially since the same Shell at 26/qt is a mid-level Quaker State synthetic for what, 8/qt?

 

355 and 360 had one part number tappet superceded by another.

Both made noise. Some make a lot of noise. Few complained. When they did we told them it was normal and they seemed to accept that.

550, 575 and 612 share a part number and there are noise complaints from 612 owners. I have never known a complaint from a 550 or 575 owner.

430 and 599 share another part number. Some 599 owners complain of noise. I have heard 430s make noise but have never heard a complaint from a 430 owner.


Some cars make more noise more often than others but I have never seen a model that did not make noise model wide. I suppose there are some individual cars that make no noise.

My opinion is that different owners have different tolerence for it and different expectations. People new to Ferrari ownership have far lower tolerence for trivial things. That has been a challenge for the dealers since I have been involved with Ferrari.

People unfamiliar with them often equate "Hand made" with "Perfection". Nothing can be further from the truth.


My opinion is also that Ferrari is showing concern and taking low cost measures in the hopes either the owners get used to it and quit complaining or the cars go out of warranty or both. It has been going on since 1995. In 2/3 of that time we put a man on the moon. If Ferrari was trying to solve the problem, or thought there was a problem to solve, I think they could have done it by now.

 

Interesting thread thanks for the contributions.
Being new to Fchat and to Ferraris I definitely fit into the "sensitive to trivial issues" camp. My excuse is that in Australia list on the road price of an optioned up 599 is around US$700K.

Bought a new 599 2 years ago. It had a sweet sounding motor but within 2 days threw up a OBD message about a faulty camshaft. It also had an intermittent problem of rough running and idling. After a few visits to the dealership and resetting of the error code they eventually had a serious look at it to find metal swarf caught in the solenoid valve which controlled the L camshaft rotation. As there was swarf in other parts of the motor Ferrari decided to replace the engine. So 4 months after purchase my new car ready with its new motor.

The new motor ran smoothly but had a cold start knocking noise at idle. This was loud enough to hear some metres away from the car. On driving it also made a loud mechanical clatter between 3000 3500 rpm. Back to the dealer: diagnosis - the air pump in this motor was bigger than the last motor and made this noise!! said was a trivial problem and don't worry about it.

Now at 11000 km and noises seems to be getting worse. It has not got better as other have suggested. The noise is hard to explain, worse than a tick sort of like a bearing knock but appears to be coming from valve area.

Back to the dealership. They have brought up issues like noisy reed valves, crankcase pressure too high, needs an oil change with additive.

From this thread it appears this Ferrari could have a bad case of noisy valve lifters.

The dealership told me they have ordered the parts from Italy and will arrive in a week.

I will let you know how it all turns out. I hope they dont just fill it with gear oil

 

John- Welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about the engine problems you have been having. I sometimes wonder if the improved insulation on the later cars like the 612 and 599 do not make some noises more obvious than it was on the earlier cars like mine. For $700K, though, I would make sure the bloody thing was perfect. There is so much induction and HGTC exhaust noise in mine (575M, not 599), that valve lifters tapping would most likely have their noise drowned under the general cacophony.

Or, like Brian and I mentioned, we are both pretty deaf.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Thanks Taz

Be interesting to know just how common a problem this is and why Ferrari refuses to address the issue with a redesign fix instead of just thick additives.

If other 599 owners have an engine that have a noise as loud as mine there must be a few unhappy 599 owners in ferrari land. Perhaps as others have said Ferrrari thinks it is such a trivial issue that they hope owners will go away until they run out of warranty or interest.

 

= Slick 50 ??

Right out of the old ads...

 

Slick 50? How about STP from an even earlier period?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Marvel Mystery Oil, or Motor Honey?
Mystery oil did great job of cleaning injectors in CIS cars.

 

Yup, the good old days. When you had no idea what that stuff was, but famous race drivers were using it, so it must be good. By extension, I guess if Ferrari is recommending it, it must be good.

The Brits had Bars Leaks for their radiators when running hot was not as big a problem as all the coolant leaking onto the ground. Times change, band-aids just evolve.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

What if the ticking noise develops when the engine is warmed up..I used to have a random ticking sound once in a while when the car was cold, but now it comes about after its completely warmed up, especially when I shut it down and restart it. I drive it almost everyday too.

The dealer advised the same thing...sticky lifters, but it's happening much more frequently since my last annual service. They changed the oil to Mobil One but I don't think they used an additive. Its quite irritating. By the way this is a 2004 Maserati Coupe with 42k miles.

What happens if the lifter fails? Does it mess up other stuff? I'd hate to sit around and listen to a tick that's eventually going to ruin my engine.

 

Brian should probably answer this, but when a lifter fails to fill completely with oil, it goes from a zero clearance device to a solid lifter like the ones in old US pushrod V8s and like Ferraris with solid lifters and shim adjustments. For those engines a light tick due to clearances in the .010-.035 inches range was normal. There are additives designed to prevent the lifters from sticking, but they are not lubricants and I would think long term use would be deliterious to the engine.

Interestingly enough, the two additives we were discussing earlier would be more prone to cause lifter sticking, because they are designed to dampen noise, not free lifters. That kind of stuff is equivalent to chasing your tail. A very short term use of a top end solvent is what was prescribed in the olden days, but not sure I would be brave enough to try it on a $50K engine.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Some previous interesting comments in this thread about the noise of the hydraulic lifters on the 599 motors.
CH

 

TTT once again for those who missed it before....
CH

 

Hi

I know this thread is old, but what I am experiencing is somewhat different.

I have had my 612 for 3 years now, but I have always been worried about the noise the engine makes between 2,000 and 2,600-ish RPM.

Its like a tapping noise that seems to disappear above 2,600-ish RPM...or maybe its just because the GTS exhaust finally drowns the tapping noise

I asked the dealership about the noise and they said that it was something about variable valve timing (or something like that).

Does any of you guys have the same issue??

Thanks
Mikael

 

Mikael- In very plain terms, they are full of bull. There is no variable valve timing on a 612, which essentially uses a 575M engine with manifold and ECU improvements. Find someone to work on your car who at least knows what he is talking about.

Not sure what you are hearing. The snake oil they add to 599s and 612s (never heard a Maranallo driver complain, even though they have the same lifters as a 612) is to quiet the hydraulic valve lifters in the system.

 

Just wondering if any one knows the difference between Tutela and STP? I heard from a Ferrari guy awhile back that it was the same stuff as the synthetic STP but I have my doubts.

 

Guys,
In Europe we are starting to use this Liqui Moly product as a substitute of Tutela which I´ve been told is suffering from some supply probs.
My mechanic has the Ferrari Classiche certification and uses/recommends it.
Here come a couple of pics
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