458 458 Brake pads

I did the brakes on my 360, changed the pads and steel rotors, changed the fluid to Castrol SRF and bled the master cylinder and all the lines.
It took me a while but I got it done and it was satisfying to know I could do the work.

But now I think I’ll let the mechanic who I trust do it. He will also check the suspension and hub and lines too. Plus I’ll probably do an oil and filter change and some other work like hydraulic steering fluid change.

Hopefully I can time this when the F8 spider arrives

 

As you know the Ferrari Brembo CCM rotors are around $4,500 each.
And on the track it doesn’t take long to wear them out due to pushing the braking performance to its limits.
Steel rotors have a heavier rotating mass, and experience more fade, but the compromise is made due to cost.
Of course for those who don’t mind the expense, it will be interesting to see if that choice enhances their race times.
The Challenge cars are still much heavier than F1 cars so it might not make as much of a difference.

 

Yes, the calipers used on the 458 Italia and 458 Spider, as well as Cali, Cali T, FF, Lusso and F12 are the exact same calipers which are found on the 458 and 488 Challenge. The front calipers mount the exact same way in the same position. The rears are also the same, just raised 10mm to accommodate the larger diameter rear rotor on the Challenge cars. They are in fact so similar that it would be very easy to mount Challenge discs to a regular 458 or any other DCT Ferrari, except for the Porto, Cali and Cali T.

The Challenge front rotor is 398x38mm. So all that would be needed was a 1mm spacer between the rotor hat and hub flange. In the rear the same 1mm spacer would be needed but also a spacer that raises the caliper 10mm. The rear Challenge rotor is 380x34mm. One would of couse need to use the appropriate stock rotor hat.

Now what they are talking about with the pad mounting, is not how the pad mounts in the caliper. A stock Challenge pad is the exact same shape as the pads found in the 458 Italia and Spider, the Cali line including Porto, FF, Lusso and F12. The 459 Speciale, 488 line, F8, 812 and TdF uses a newer type of caliper and different pad design with larger pad area.
The fixing they talk about is how the friction material is fixed to the backing plate. Brembo basically copied Pagids method. Regular Brembo lads use hard metal rivets only. This is also why a street type Brembo pad will tear up a CCM rotor if it wears too far down.
A long time ago, Pagid came up with a unique method of fixing friction material, which consists of using both resin bonding like Endless does, but reinforce that with a soft metal rivet system. So if the pad wears beyond the rivets, the rivets are designed to wear with the friction material. This method is obviously more expensive and time consuming, hence why Brembo opt for this method for their street pads. Yet Pagid still manages to sell their pads cheaper lol. But that is basically the long and short of it. Some argue that stock Brembo Challenge pads are straight up rebranded Pagid RSL29 pads. But if one looks at a Pagid RSL29 next to a Challenge pad, there are small differences. I don't have a box with Challenge pads here at this point, but I have seen some that verified that it was a Textar compound. As far as stock Challenge pads go, Ferrari does not offer morecthan one pad. If a Challenge team wants to run a different compound, they have to source it on its own. The good news are that just about any compound is available for the classic Brembo GT6 and GT4 caliper. But right now the RSL1 compound is king here in Europe, both for top Challenge teams running CCM or CCST rotors, as well as for those running on a budget with steel rotors.

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The thing is that once those steel rotors get glowing, they wear just as fast as CCM rotors. More and more teams here are switching to CCST. The initial purchase price is high, but still less than OE CCM. I reckon a Challenge team can get CCST rotors for roughly 10k Euro. That is pretty steep, but still less than 13k Euro for OE CCM discs.

Now is that price competitive to AP steel or similar? Yep. A set of AP steel rotors is about 3.5k Euro, but they wear a lot faster than CCST discs. A team running CCM or steel goes through 4-6 rotors during a full season. How the car is driven etc. can greatly affect disc life. Most teams go through two CCST rotors. So is that 20k worth of CCST rotors for that first season? Nope. The initial price is 10k max, probably less. Then when the next set is needed, the rotor is refurbished, which is 2800 Euro for a full set. So one season of running CCST will cost 12800 Euro. Now if the team with steel rotors are gentle, they need four sets, so that is 14000 Euro for a season. But here is the kicker. For the next season, the team eunning CCST style discs, still has two refinished left, sometimes three if the disc checks out okay. But this means that the total cost of season two is 5600 Euro. That totals 18400 Euro. At this point the team running steel is out 28000 Euro and the team running Brembo is out a staggering 104000 Euro. This is of course if the drivers are soft on brakes, imagine how this adds up for teams who kills 6 sets of CCM or steel rotors vs 3 Sets of CCST discs per season.
I have tried to find every single angle and reason for steel and CCM rotors, but I can't. I guess that is why more and more racers and special supercars run CCST. This includes all Koenigsegg models, the Ford GT-R cars, the Senna GT-R and McLarens with "Senna brakes", new Tesla Roadster, BMW track and race cars, BAC, Porsche etc. On top of that steel rotors adds between 6 and 8 kg per wheel of rotating unsprung mass. No thanks.

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I found front RSC1 pads for $576 (e.g. VividRacing) but that’s pads only. If you’re careful, you can reuse even the sensors in addition to the springs and pins, but if you can’t, where can you get the hardware set?


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Also besides the dealer...where can you find the caliper bolts? The bolts that attached the caliper to the uprights? Usually these are a 1 time use stretch bolt. What are the torque specs? I searched Ricambi America
On the Porsche’s this is a 1 time use bolt torqued to 63ft lbs.....for a Ferrari?

 

I buy the bolts at Eurospares. I will get you the part number tomorrow. They are however not a one time only item per my tech, and only needs 100nm of torque. I change them anyway as they are really cheap The caliper piston dust seals are available as well. The spring is just the generic spring for that caliper. Get it from GM for example. That being said, that spring is pretty strong and usually don't break. If you need new sensors, just get a Porsche set for a GT or Panamera or whatever, with ceramic rotors or a Corvette and splice it with the Fiat plug on the old sensor leads.

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Thanks...I was wondering about the sensors as they really are just a closed loop system.

I’d like to get a set of Pagids that I could use on the street and the very very few track events I might do this fall/winter. A pad that’s slightly more durable with more than 3mm of wear surface but that is easy of the rotors.

So I can either try and save the oem sensors and get a cheap set , clip the sensors off and solder the 2 wires together and plug them in the port.

 

Unless you’re replacing the rotors, you don’t need to remove the calipers to replace the pads. At least not for the rears. Haven’t done fronts yet.


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Fronts you do...closed caliper design.

 

Yep. I actually had my speed shop make four adapters. They got four Bosch plugs like the ones Porsche uses, and just soldered that to 5 inches of the old sensor lead with the Fiat plug on it. Many others simply don't use sensors and just keep them rolled up with a cable tie. If the sensors don't matter and are triggered, just cut off the sensor lead close to the plug and solder the two leads together. It is indeed just a closed loop, so no biggie. The spring is not readily available for our 488 style calipers, but the pads are very easy to clip out. Just be aware that you don't damage the spring. It is not very fragile, but since you need to reuse it, just treat it kindly.

Before you loosen the caliper, make sure you unbolt the two small torx screws that fixes the hard brake line to the back ofvthe caliper. Then after that you just remove the two caliper bolts with a 10mm allen head socet. Unclip the old pads, insert the new, put it back together and you're done.

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On the Pista, F8, 488, 812, Speciale and TdF you need to remove the calipers. The pads clip in from the bottom. Completely different design.

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On the 458 the fronts are as easy as the rears. Just unbolt the centre bolt that goes across the spring with a 13mm top, knock out the two pins and the spring comes out. Then you just slide the pads out the same way you do on the rear.

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Thanks for sharing the analysis. I was surprised with the long term advantages of the CCST over steel. The OE costs are simply untenable.

You are right that the CCST is the best solution for the teams. ( When it comes time for me to replace my rotors I may do the same.)

Usually with time, prices fall since the tech is no longer new. But perhaps the labor and the process involved justifies the pricing. Not to mention that the market is a very small one.

 

I'm guessing that over time, they might get slightly cheaper. But the core of the CCST discs are expensive to manufacture. It takes a long time and requires a lot of energy.

We can hope that the mire OEM's get on board, the cheaper it gets, but don't expect miracles. My guess is that we will see more of them in the future on electric cars. In this application they have two very significant benefits. One is obviously the weight saving. Every bit of extra range a manufacture can get from a car, is very important from a marketing standpoint. If ceramic discs can offer something fkr the next generation of Model S, we will more than likely see them there. Remember that an OEM like Tesla does not pay what you and I pay. On top of that, they will have resolved all their rust issues in one go. It will add a bit to the initial purchase price of a new Model S, but can you imagine how long they would last on a car that mostly uses regen? They might need a resurfacing once during the life of the car, and for a large volume OEM, that means the price of that is no more than a normal steel rotor and pad job. Things are moving very fast at the moment, and Brembo stands to be the big loser in this one. It is also worth noting that the current generation of Porsche discs which are similar to CCST is not made and developed by Brembo. Neither are the McLaren discs which are not CCST. They are a similar type to the Porsche made by Akabono. Brembo is still the largest manufacture of calipers, but they are way behind in the pad and disc department when it comes to ceramic brakes on street cars.

A shame Ferrari does not jump on the bandwagon, but considering the fact that Brembo is their F1 brake supplier and the fact that Brembo is Italian, might have a lot to do with it.

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Yep...I use to swap pads on my Porsche’s all the time for track events....got it down...no different with the Ferrari...other than sourcing parts like the bolts and pad spring. Same thing on my Porsche with the brake lines too.

 

Thanks! That’s what I thought, but was too lazy to go down and look before posting. If the calipers don’t need to come off, I would not remove the calipers unnecessarily. Don’t they bolt to an alloy carrier? Porsches do, and many people have installed studs to avoid stripping the threads on the carriers with frequent pad changes. Studs do make it slightly more difficult to get the calipers on and off though, as you have to clear and line up the studs with the holes in the caliper.

What is the torque value for the big cross bolt?


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Sorry. Don't remember the torque for that one.

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The two caliper bolts have part number 195167. These are the same for all four corners.They are just a generic 12x1.5 thread bolt of a decent quality really.
If you want to replace the dust gaiters they have part number 70003492 front and 70003493.

 

I just this Saturday replaced my oem front pads.

If interested, read all about it here (scroll down): https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/diy-maintenance-458-thread.595191/page-6#post-147506991

 

Guys, if you look at the picture of the box with the pads in Melvok's thread, you can see it says T4300. That is because they use the Textar compound I mentioned earlier.

 

Hmm, from my search, the rear Corvette rotor is 388mm x 32mm ACDelco 177-1177, for the 2015-2019 with J57 brake package, ~$1600/ea. Front Corvette rotors ACDelco 177-1120 394mm x 36mm $1250/ea. I couldn't find a corvette rear rotor that was 360mm. Even the Chevy Camaro Z28 rear looks to be 390x32mm. Could you let me know what year Corvette had a 360mm rear rotor, or maybe a part number?

 

You are correct. My mistake. There is a slight difference in size. The C6 and C7 actually ran a 394x36 mm and 380x34 mm rotor. It'is been a while, and I was sure the size was the same. The Corvette rear size is basically the same as is used on Challenge cars.

Now that being said, if anyone wanted to try the Corvette front rotors, the slightly smaller diameter is not an issue. But will they sit properly on the hat? Don't know.

The Ac Delco logo has nothing to do with who makes them. They are Brembo rotors. Like the box with Ferrari brakes get a horsey sticker, these get a GM brand box.

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Thanks for the clarification. I think Racing Brake at one point was offering corvette front discs with custom hats for the 458? What I don't know is where to source the 360mm rear disc.

Sorry I wasn't implying ACDelco was the manufacturer of the brake disc--I know it's Brembo that makes the disc. It's just the part number that is listed when searching for corvette brake discs, like the Ferrari p/n 282121 for the rear disc for example.

 

Why not Surface transforms CCST discs? Way more durable than OE and resurfacable four times. I've been extremely happy with mine, and I have been pretty hard on them.

Your 458 with CCST discs and Pagid RSC2 pads will be a totally different experience.

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